The Thread Brit SHOULD have started

[Surreal The A.D. Prophet]

This is Brits Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surreal The A.D. Prophet
at the risk of hijacking zeta's thread i will say this.

As opposed to asking why everyone else's standard shouldn't be MY standard, why shouldn;t my standard be everyone else's standard?

but a more potent question is why do we need a standard?

while you are of the mentality to say "but exactly, why do we NEED a standard ?" but i challenge you work work towards an ACTUAL answer.

and perhaps, you will understand why i can say that I should walk away with something.?


The only problem I have is with arrogance and lack of modisty towards such a personal pattern of events being someone elses poetry. Why feel the need to thrust expectations or expect a standard that does not really exist? Poetry to me is not about going to workshops to reach a level which will make you more marketable, or being better, or being shy of showing all of that which I am. It is not about the embarrasment caused by another poet trying to look down in examination of my work, by taking parts of it away from what he cannot quite grasp by saying ' you are saying nothing' I do not concern myself with such people. They are the ones overly concerned with criticisms which are basically clever quibblings in which today one view wins, tommorow the opposite. Your views do interest me though, as you seem focused on your journey of finding yourself in poetry, and I admire that, truly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surreal The A.D. Prophet

i do expect of others what i expect of myself, and why would you take issue with it if you expect something specific of yourself? i would like you to note the implications of my stating that, if i didnt take her view as mine, i would like to know what her view is.?


You have the right to expect from others what you expect makes a poem more coherent to you, ofcourse, but I would not be so confident in my own arrogance to suggest such a thing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Surreal The A.D. Prophet

that is to say, a piece should stand on its own. strongly enough to present itse;f and what it represents, it's author's consiousness, in the absence of what it represents. and before you claim that this may go against her purpose in writing the poem, consider the poem's purpose. evaluate it for yourslef. LOOK at the poem and tell me what it's purpose is.


So If i write such a poem:

My mind wakes near flowers
and awoken I stir
in the forrest furs
weeping the willows
own tears, which I prefer.

If that to you does not present itself strongly enough, on what grounds will you base your opinion, and judgement? What should I change, and why? and when you realise these feelings are more or less happy misunderstandings, you will see that works of art of an infinate lonliness and with nothing so little to be reached as with criticism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Surreal The A.D. Prophet

omg

i just read that quote

never EVER quote that shit to me

LMAO




It was a poem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surreal The A.D. Prophet

wow, that is precisely....let me ask you, what makes a work of art a work of art? is it unquestioning acceptance of a piece as such? or is it inquiry into the nature of the piece? examination of its technique? contemplaction of the reality it creates? "so little as critical words"? please. criticism, but more clearly EVALUATION is bound to art's purpose.


You can question whatever you want, I am not stating that a piece should not be investigated, I just have problems with people trying to push their weight around something so personal, and being judgmental in what would make it better, and what makes it bad. You use the terms evaluation and criticism as if they are cousins, they are not. Evaluation relates more to understanding, reflection, and enjoying poetry. Criticism relates more to belittling a piece out of your own arrogance, that what you think makes a poem good or bad and what should be the priority of the creator. It is one thing to try and understand the content, and quite another to try and take the reigns and change it to suit your own expectations of how poetry should be delivered sufficently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surreal The A.D. Prophet

you astound me, as i am sure i astound you. there is really no explanation for your 'view'. i question whether it is a view, because there is little perception in it.?


You don't astound me, you are like all the other poets I have met who are overly concerned with aesthetic criticisms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surreal The A.D. Prophet

if we as humans are not to evaluate art, why SHOULD we to create art? it is not some magical release, some mystical expelling of energies, what is it?


Evaluate them till the cows come home, till all the tea in china becomes readable tea leaves for you to decypher and say why they work or dont work, why they are wack, why they are good, what subjects you shouldnt write about, why love poems are to cliche. I will still be here thinking poetry is very much magical, and have an eye and ear in all senses, and create for what life puts infront of me journeying inward to find myself, my wants, my hopes, my fears, my wishes my dreams in my journal floating down my own stream, projecting a part of myself out of neccesity and recording my life as a journal through poems, and always seeking to see beauty in people.

[Surreal The A.D. Prophet]

Now, you managed to NOT address anything i said.

i am not surprised.


these words; 'arrogance', 'modesty', 'judgement' are all concepts stemming from self assurance. i don't care if you feel that i am self assured. i am. stop addressing that and angage in the conversation at hand.

this WHOLE paragraph "The only problem I have is with arrogance and lack of modisty towards such a personal ..." has absolutely nothing to do with what i said.

"You have the right to expect from others what you expect makes a poem more coherent to you, ofcourse, but I would not be so confident in my own arrogance to suggest such a thing."

i dont care if you wouldnt be so 'arrogant'.

"on what grounds will you base your opinion, and judgement?" a standard which i establish. a ruler based on that which i value in art. and is it not funny that this is very close to the question you dodged a paragraph or two ago?

"nothing so little to be reached as with criticism. "
funny that these exact words are used. really man, say SOMEthing.

"I just have problems with people trying to push their weight around something so personal..."

boo hoo i am shitting on someone's experience...except, language is a manner of conveying experience...and if i do not feel as though experience is properly conveyed, i am right in asking more of the speaker.

"Evaluate them till the cows come home, till all the tea in china becomes readable tea leaves for you to decypher and say why they work or dont work, why they are wack, why they are good, what subjects you shouldnt write about, why love poems are to cliche. I will still be here thinking poetry is very much magical, and have an eye and ear in all senses, and create for what life puts infront of me journeying inward to find myself, my wants, my hopes, my fears, my wishes my dreams in my journal floating down my own stream, projecting a part of myself out of neccesity and recording my life as a journal through poems, and always seeking to see beauty in people."

drivel. you are very good at not answering questions, but now let's see if you have what it takes to man up and give it a shot.

why do we need a standard? a ruler?

what is a poems fundamental purpose? but more importantly WHY should we seek to discern one?

no more social bullshit regarding how personal poetry is. language is personal. language is a tool to relay experience. that is why dialects occur, because a group has a different experience to express. fuck off with that shit. it is not what is being discussed. why not reply not making ANY assesments of my self assurance eh? post a reply addressing my argument, and my INQUIRIES. then you can assess my 'arrogance'.

[Surreal The A.D. Prophet]

"My mind wakes near flowers
and awoken I stir
in the forrest furs
weeping the willows
own tears, which I prefer."

what was the purpose of the poem?
what standard am i to use?
whose values am i to concern myself with in looking at this poem?

all questions which you ask in mockery. but i don't.

there is very little to this poem. it doesnt stand on it's own, and it was presented on it's own. now unless you state that your purpose was to write a poem without coherent purpose, an insidious task indeed, you failed at whatever you were attempting. so i would say that this is a bad poem. the grounds i base this on are every faculty i have at my disposal when investigating a piece.

every reference, emotional, logical, conceptual, factual, EVERY reference and factulty i can call upon. i 'push my wieght upon' a personal piece of work becuase to know it's nature i HAVE to.

[Brit Boi Gee]

Next time you decide you will make a post for me, you could atleast ask. Just because you said a new thread should have been made, isn't it my job to decide? as it is my response. Instead you post it all mixed up resembling a smudge on the page. If you want my response, go back to the thread we started it in, as that is where the whole thing originated. But I think I addressed all you had to say, So I stand by what I said. And if you did not grasp where I was coming from, I'm sorry, you're not listening. I answered in a manner which I thought was appropriate, not intentiionally dodging anything, just commenting on what you said. And as for not being in the position to comment on your arrogance, I wouldn't call you arrogant if your critiques and responses didn't reek of it, would I?

Oh and for the record, the poem which I made, which you claimed 'I had failed with whatever I was attempting' Underpins all the previous comments I made..I failed? How did I fail? I may have failed In the eyes of someone who thinks poetry is a steeple chase towards a hall of fame where proffesors beef up their students of life, so they can convey poetry 'properly' and sit around over coffee brutally crossing out words, and taking out parts so that any commoner would be able to understand, or so the magazine might let you have some space.

How can I fail at something you did not handle with care? did not touch, did not feel, did not write. Did you make it? and now you feel you wanna claim it? Nah, it just dont fly. You claim my response is drivel, thats How I write, yea it's poetic a lot of the time, you dont like it? Critique it and make yourself feel better.

there is very little to this poem. it doesnt stand on it's own, and it was presented on it's own. now unless you state that your purpose was to write a poem without coherent purpose, an insidious task indeed, you failed at whatever you were attempting. so i would say that this is a bad poem. the grounds i base this on are every faculty i have at my disposal when investigating a piece.

"My mind wakes near flowers
and awoken I stir
in the forrest furs
weeping the willows
own tears, which I prefer."

There is very much to this poem, it stands on it's own, and was presented on its own. I did not state a purpose, so now what are you going to do? Make a judgement? Ok. "He must have wrote it without coherent purpose".. Did I? and I failed on that assumption and your arsenal for investigation? Right. And saying that.."it's now a bad poem' The master at work ladies and gentlemen.

[Surreal The A.D. Prophet]

i see

so by not giving a purpose
and not haveing a discernable purpose

you transcend my ability to evaluate your work.

[Zeta]

I should just leave this alone but uh here I go with my big mouth anyway, now, you read poetry for a reason right? WHY? we don't say that, just as we shouldn't have to say why we write it, assuming there is even a reason, to me it's creating order out of chaos, in an attempt to relate our experiences whether they be internal or external to our collective concious, ie: me, you, them... the great thing about poetry is that you can always walk away with something, like you did Surreal with the validation of your own self's opinion that poetry should be one way and not another, so you lie!!! You walked away with a lot of ready made criticism, I suggest you open your mind before peeping more stuff. It's to help you develop your own poetic form PERIOD

[Zeta]

Originally Posted by Brit Boi Gee

Next time you decide you will make a post for me, you could atleast ask. Just because you said a new thread should have been made, isn't it my job to decide? as it is my response. Instead you post it all mixed up resembling a smudge on the page. If you want my response, go back to the thread we started it in, as that is where the whole thing originated. But I think I addressed all you had to say, So I stand by what I said. And if you did not grasp where I was coming from, I'm sorry, you're not listening. I answered in a manner which I thought was appropriate, not intentiionally dodging anything, just commenting on what you said. And as for not being in the position to comment on your arrogance, I wouldn't call you arrogant if your critiques and responses didn't reek of it, would I?

Oh and for the record, the poem which I made, which you claimed 'I had failed with whatever I was attempting' Underpins all the previous comments I made..I failed? How did I fail? I may have failed In the eyes of someone who thinks poetry is a steeple chase towards a hall of fame where proffesors beef up their students of life, so they can convey poetry 'properly' and sit around over coffee brutally crossing out words, and taking out parts so that any commoner would be able to understand, or so the magazine might let you have some space.

How can I fail at something you did not handle with care? did not touch, did not feel, did not write. Did you make it? and now you feel you wanna claim it? Nah, it just dont fly. You claim my response is drivel, thats How I write, yea it's poetic a lot of the time, you dont like it? Critique it and make yourself feel better.

there is very little to this poem. it doesnt stand on it's own, and it was presented on it's own. now unless you state that your purpose was to write a poem without coherent purpose, an insidious task indeed, you failed at whatever you were attempting. so i would say that this is a bad poem. the grounds i base this on are every faculty i have at my disposal when investigating a piece.

"My mind wakes near flowers
and awoken I stir
in the forrest furs
weeping the willows
own tears, which I prefer."

There is very much to this poem, it stands on it's own, and was presented on its own. I did not state a purpose, so now what are you going to do? Make a judgement? Ok. "He must have wrote it without coherent purpose".. Did I? and I failed on that assumption and your arsenal for investigation? Right. And saying that.."it's now a bad poem' The master at work ladies and gentlemen.

LOL, he is arrogant isn't he!!!?

[Anaphora]

This has to be the fucking most retarded argument I've ever heard.

Not everyone's life is interesting. Its the fucking truth. And so, people who write poems about their non interesting lives, are writing non interesting poetry. That non interesting poety is turning readers away from the actually decent poetry that has reason, has decent craft, has substance, has beneficial reasons to fucking read it.

I don't fucking care about peoples emotions. I'm honest. I don't care if you 'cried a thousand tears in a single drop' or some other pseudo poetic bullshit. Its not about the emotion of the subject of the poem, its the emotion evoked in the reader.

Personal poems are just that, personal. Like, for instance, the poem oft quoted which I can only assume was a Brit poem.:

"My mind wakes near flowers
and awoken I stir
in the forrest furs
weeping the willows
own tears, which I prefer."

-this is trite. I would normally try to find something good about it first... perhaps... it has 5 lines... I don't know. Weeping willows aren't furs, and its fir. fur is on a fucking animal. This literally doesn't say much, except you woke up, are in a forest, and crying. There's nothing to point to why, or when, or to even make one curious... its ridiculously bland, and only written I'm sure, to play on the name Weeping Willow. It is not well crafted. It is a personal poem, because you know exactly what it means, however, you are the only one, or perhaps people you tell the 20 minute back story to... that's not what poety is about, you shouldn't need to explain for 3 pages a 5 lined poem... The poem does not stand on its own as anything more than an exercise of playing on words...

Its one thing to write something like this, but its another to arrogantly defend it as good poetry. Yea, its poetry, and a diary is a book. If you really just wrote for yourself, you'd write in a diary, and have no fucking reason to show anyone else, let alone post it on an internet message board. And if you post it on a message board and refuse to take criticism even into consideration, you're just looking for a self esteem boost from people who wish they could write poetry, and probably idolize •••el or Henry Rollins... neither of whom can fucking write poetry.

Seriously. If you can't take criticism, keep your poems to your goddamned self. Because you're wasting people who are serious about poetry's time with your 'look at me, I'm a sensitive poet' bullshit.

[Zeta]

Oh shut the fuck up anaphora

[Anaphora]

Ohhh, so you've chosen the academic argument... interesting... so should I stick out my tongue now to counter that well spoken retort?

[Xero Satsujin]

You proved a point Ana, this is a dumb arguement, it's all in the eyes of the beholder...It's like arguing with a blind man claiming he can see. Sure it can be proved that he can't, but who are we to be sure that it truth? Fact and reason? Then that makes us just as blind as he right? Not in the physical sense, but at least mentally. Critisism is a part of life indeed, because people point the finger wherever you go, trust me, just try being black for a day. Well, I read this, but it's pointless to try to argue over opinion, we're all entitled to one...even the people with uninteresting lives...

[Brit Boi Gee]

Originally Posted by Anaphora

This has to be the fucking most retarded argument I've ever heard.

Not everyone's life is interesting. Its the fucking truth. And so, people who write poems about their non interesting lives, are writing non interesting poetry. That non interesting poety is turning readers away from the actually decent poetry that has reason, has decent craft, has substance, has beneficial reasons to fucking read it..

wow..just wow, at your blinding ignorance towards Poetry. But im not going to rise to the many hooks you put out there to jump at, its pointless, All I will say is your bitterness is blinding your judgement, and thats what you seem like, a lil kid who thinks he knows what makes an interesting life, what makes a good poem, what has substance and what does not. No wonder Passion is always on vacation in your pieces, you're not in touch with humanity. You see emotion as worthless, love is merely a worn out notion. And you look outward in each place of poetry to seek to be the best, and to have some kind of recognition, when art is just you and your solitude, and the struggles we as humans endure on the path to understanding ourselves. One day You will grow out of your search, one day you will stop comparing your poems, you will stop trying to get the magazines attention, and you will be alone with your poetry. At this point I feel you will be too uncomfortable to continue writing as you will learn it is not now the way in which you imagined unfolding before you.

How can you say that people are being turned away from poetry by people writing about their non existant, and non eventfull lives? The only people being turned away, are people like yourself, who do not respect and appreciate the individuals roots taking hold in the experiences, those very very very important experiences that we all have to endure, while the great pains of life enter us, and take on a new beginning, and in turn open us up further to the world and ourselves.

Originally Posted by Anaphora

I don't fucking care about peoples emotions. I'm honest. I don't care if you 'cried a thousand tears in a single drop' or some other pseudo poetic bullshit. Its not about the emotion of the subject of the poem, its the emotion evoked in the reader. ..

It's pseudo poetical bullshit, because that is exactly what you are about, and human feeling is too far from you to touch, imagine or see its magnificence. Your comments about the importance of the emotion being evoked in the reader, further shows how you write for anyone but yourself, and how you have to actually try to evoke such feelings, when I let it happen naturally without any kind of mechanical procedure. You completely miss the point of how poetry is an internal happening moreso than external, lingering in the eternal, and the grasp we have to engage beyond the physical world with it.

Originally Posted by Anaphora

Personal poems are just that, personal. Like, for instance, the poem oft quoted which I can only assume was a Brit poem.:

"My mind wakes near flowers
and awoken I stir
in the forrest furs
weeping the willows
own tears, which I prefer."

-this is trite. I would normally try to find something good about it first... perhaps... it has 5 lines... I don't know. Weeping willows aren't furs, and its fir. fur is on a fucking animal. This literally doesn't say much, except you woke up, are in a forest, and crying. There's nothing to point to why, or when, or to even make one curious... its ridiculously bland, and only written I'm sure, to play on the name Weeping Willow. It is not well crafted. It is a personal poem, because you know exactly what it means, however, you are the only one, or perhaps people you tell the 20 minute back story to... that's not what poety is about, you shouldn't need to explain for 3 pages a 5 lined poem... The poem does not stand on its own as anything more than an exercise of playing on words.....

So it is Trite, meaning: repeated too often; overfamiliar through overuse. In other words, you could relate to it in some way; Thanks, and I was quite aware of how many lines it had, I wrote it, but I thankyou for the midway compliment in how long it was, I will bare that in mind for the future poems I decide to write. I also thankyou for letting me know that it isn't well crafted, but I am not trying to be as good as you! You say you knew what it means, but you didnt understand all of it, so your critique has just become more or less a happy misunderstanding between us. Your breakdown, makes no difference to me, as your approach was always going to be negative, as our goals aare different, and overall the poem, while serving my purpose served yours, in being the material you needed to defeat it. But I haven't been defeated, and shall still approach your poems with the care they deserve, and hope one day you shall go beyond criticism, and become more Gentle in your approach towards other people and their work.

[Brit Boi Gee]

Originally Posted by Anaphora

Its one thing to write something like this, but its another to arrogantly defend it as good poetry. Yea, its poetry, and a diary is a book. If you really just wrote for yourself, you'd write in a diary, and have no fucking reason to show anyone else, let alone post it on an internet message board. And if you post it on a message board and refuse to take criticism even into consideration, you're just looking for a self esteem boost from people who wish they could write poetry, and probably idolize •••el or Henry Rollins... neither of whom can fucking write poetry......

And it is another to arrogantly to defend it as bad, when you do not have what I have at my disposal to make clear what I was trying to address, Or have the feelings I posess. Thats why criticism and arrogance is beyond me, and instead concentrate on what I can relate to, and discover within, the part which relates to my past, and which may involve my future. I respect people who write poetry out of neccesity, as good poetry always springs from this and with pure intentions. I see my poetry as like you say a diary, and I do like to share, because I know the joy from reading the works of others. And also it is within me, to search and try to fathom or realise what I am becoming and as knowing poetry has lead me to discovery about myself, I still try further still to see where poetry is spreading it's roots within me and why, by seeing what it means to others. But still I know, this is a deeply personal thing for each individual, and respect what you have to do, to find out what poetry is constantly evolving into on your path. And also I never said I refuse to take Criticism, I encounter it in a lot of places I go. But you cannot tell me which level you are hoping to reach or even where it is. Which poets posess it and which don't. It's just your preference, so you should atleast take that into consideration before shooting off at the mouth, and atleast be humble enough to respect you do not always know as best as the author of the given piece. And for those reasons, it seen clearly to me that it just isn't a part of me to give it out criticism as you do, as poetry and its importance are more so internal in my life, than your external preference, and I believe that one should approach a poets work delicately and possitively, whenever he can, rather than have the arrogance to demean the content, with a so called treasure chest of skill that knows how the content would be best formulated.

As for the self esteem boost, I think you need one more than me, as you are the one who strives to write perfect poetry that is pleasing to the eye, and for the recognition others can give you, along with the status you can attain.

Who cares about the gossip of others about your work? the putdowns, etc. Who's life is it afterall? When it is in the end, just you alone with your poetry, and that is the hardest thing to realise, that in poetry there is in the end, only the journey inwards into yourself.

Originally Posted by Anaphora

Seriously. If you can't take criticism, keep your poems to your goddamned self. Because you're wasting people who are serious about poetry's time with your 'look at me, I'm a sensitive poet' bullshit.

I am serious about poetry, Just not in the way you are, and I will continue to share it, and myself with others. I have never seen anyone on here show their disliking for my comments about their work. Who am I to say I would have done it differently? That would make me the new author of the piece, and just think of all the things I could have been missing. And yes I would say that I am sensitive, and It's not bullshit. To say "look at me", 'I am sensitive', would that bring me any gratification to pretend? No. I am sensitive to people and poetry, and I couldn't be a poet without it. On what grounds are you calling my sensitivity bullshit anyway? Have I not shown you enough?

My apologies for any mistakes above. I did not even feel like responding as I have some kind Of flu.. ACHOO..

take care

[Surreal The A.D. Prophet]

and some people say cucumbers taste better pickled

[Xero Satsujin]

By the way Brit, I had this exact same arguement with Ana once before. Him and some other young buc that came through the realm for about a week. Ana stayed, he didnt. I don't know if it gets through to him that people are people, that they are going to do what they want to regardless of what he say's and/or does. We are all as unique as a grand of sand on a foreign land(no rhyme intended), and yet we all belong to the beach.

I have to agree with Prophet though, pickles are better than cucumbers, lol...Poetry is poetry ana, regardless of how you critisize it, when the creator writes it that is how it is intended, even the mistakes are written with purpose. When changed due to the views of another, then you become the author and that purpose and intent are lost and gone forever...I aint gonna get into this again, just figured I'd read and put my two cents in ya know?

[Mind~$oul]

-sits back and enjoys a bag of popcorn

[Brit Boi Gee]