Crocodiles

[Radium]

I had this dream the other night about these young people (probably in their early and middle 20's) playing together in the forest. and they were having lots of fun. jumping around, running around, rolling around; things like that.

and then these crocodiles came. and suddenly they were scared and they weren't playing anymore. they started scrambling around in terror not knowing what to do. they were completely defenseless and helpless and one by one the crocodiles started eating them. they were tearing them apart, limb by limb, piece by piece; things like that. and they were screaming for help but nothing happened. nobody came to help them.

i wasnt there but i was watching this whole thing happening from some kind of removed plane where i was aware of them but also of myself. I remember being scared not because I was scared of these crocodiles coming to actually eat me next (because i wasnt there in the forest to actually be eaten) but because i could sense the fear in these people who were being eaten. and it was like rubbing off on me.

and when i woke up i was really upset about this. and i feel that the worst thing of all was not being eaten but being so frightened. that feeling of fear was worse than anything. it was paralyzing. by that i mean it was a feeling of helplessness; this strange locking up feeling of being unable to do anything. the feeling of being totally powerless. and i realized that this is what the crocodiles were. that thing that comes and takes away our power. we lose our ability to do the things we want to do and become weak. we surrender our power to the crocodiles and become their food.

so i resolved to never be eaten by crocodiles. and i said i am going to make myself stronger than the crocodiles so that they cant eat me. and i am going to make my body more powerful than crocodiles so i can push them off of me with ease whenever i want. and i am going to make myself smarter than crocodiles so i can out-think them whenever i want. and crocodiles are never going to be stronger or smarter than me and i might even start playing games with them because they just make me laugh at how weak they are compared to me.

and that is what is called the lovers revenge

[Joro]

Is this an allegory for conquering personal demons?

Why it gotta be about Crocodiles tho? Have you actually ever been bitten by one? Why must you demonize them? Just cuz you won the cosmic lotto and ended up human doesn't mean you get to shit on other species. Did you know they're endangered? Your propaganda isn't helping.

[Radium]

its not really about going out and killing crocodiles (evil things)

its more about making yourself so strong that crocodiles can't even hurt you even if they wanted to and were to try to. this is because crocodiles (evil things) are always going to exist. so you must accept them into your heart too just as you would anything else. not wanting to destroy them but just to make yourself impervious to them so that by the same token they can never destroy you.

everything in the universe is trying to make itself stable and crocodiles (evil things) come and basically take away your ability to be that way. but they only do this as a consequence of your own weakness. its more your fault than theirs. because its in their nature to attack your weaknesses in the same way it must necessarily be in your nature to improve upon your weaknesses

so you must go out and become stronger than every crocodile

this is the game all things in the universe play

and its the only way to be a lover (the highest form of living creature) and hence why its called the lovers revenge (which is not like regular revenge)

[Noib Da Mutt]

Anything that is not growth is stagnation and anything that is stagnation is death... I agree with your assertion here...

But, my reasoning differs...

Not so much to avoid evil things or danger or whatever, but, rather, the understanding that we are each individually responsible for the evolution of our species. if i can grow and become stronger and evolve, then so can all of humanity. The reality of this understanding means that I directly contribute in a significant way to the evolution of this species... I want humans to do things that we cannot even imagine currently- but, it will take baby steps beginning with myself...

[Joro]

I disagree both with Radium's identifying the destabilizing force of the universe with sweet innocent Crocodiles ... and I disagree with Noib's speciesism.

If I consider myself human and take the evolution of the human species as the purpose of my life -then obviously I'll see myself in competition with other forms of life and look to hinder them. If they get in the way of my cities, I'll cut down the trees. If their teeth look scary, I'll slaughter the crocodiles and make expensive purses of their skin.

NO ....scary looking crocodiles, tall, hard-to-climb trees.....they are all a part of ME.

[Noib Da Mutt]

Originally Posted by Joro

I disagree both with Radium's identifying the destabilizing force of the universe with sweet innocent Crocodiles ... and I disagree with Noib's speciesism.

If I consider myself human and take the evolution of the human species as the purpose of my life -then obviously I'll see myself in competition with other forms of life and look to hinder them. If they get in the way of my cities, I'll cut down the trees. If their teeth look scary, I'll slaughter the crocodiles and make expensive purses of their skin.

NO ....scary looking crocodiles, tall, hard-to-climb trees.....they are all a part of ME.

logic is flawed here...

you're saying

A wants to become better A
B(animals) wants to remain B
therefor A must destroy B to become better A


there is absolutely NO connection...

Part of advancing is understanding that human life IS animal life... We are not separate without it... From bacteria to trees to fish to mosquitoes each of these life forms are essential to our own growth and evolution... There is no "specieism"- just life... Life breeds life- the universe is living... one could argue that it is an organism itself... We are but a small, young, and advancing part of that organism....

[Joro]

Originally Posted by Noib Da Mutt

logic is flawed here...

you're saying

A wants to become better A
B(animals) wants to remain B
therefor A must destroy B to become better A


there is absolutely NO connection...

Part of advancing is understanding that human life IS animal life... We are not separate without it... From bacteria to trees to fish to mosquitoes each of these life forms are essential to our own growth and evolution... There is no "specieism"- just life... Life breeds life- the universe is living... one could argue that it is an organism itself... We are but a small, young, and advancing part of that organism....

You contradicted yourself. First you say "A is A" and "B is B" like they're separate with no connection, then in the second half of your post you say they are the same.

So I'm not really sure which part of your post to refute.

Ok, I'll refute the first part.

Humans wanting to be more advanced humans can MOST DEFINITELY destroy other species to accomplish this goal. Happens all the time, in fact, as we cut down rain forests for various reasons and destroy animals' habitat to expand our concrete jungle.

There's also devastating oil tanker spills and other forms of pollution. There's also hunting Elephants almost to extinction to make piano keys...decimating the population of whales for oil in women's perfumes....

Humans fuck with animal species' ability to survive ALL THE TIME. You must not be from earth....

[Noib Da Mutt]

Originally Posted by Joro

You contradicted yourself. First you say "A is A" and "B is B" like they're separate with no connection, then in the second half of your post you say they are the same.

So I'm not really sure which part of your post to refute.

Ok, I'll refute the first part.

Humans wanting to be more advanced humans can MOST DEFINITELY destroy other species to accomplish this goal. Happens all the time, in fact, as we cut down rain forests for various reasons and destroy animals' habitat to expand our concrete jungle.

There's also devastating oil tanker spills and other forms of pollution. There's also hunting Elephants almost to extinction to make piano keys...decimating the population of whales for oil in women's perfumes....

Humans fuck with animal species' ability to survive ALL THE TIME. You must not be from earth....

My first statement was pointing out the fallacy of your argument- it wasn't an argument at all... The second portion was my opinion...

So, to address your comments though...

I don't think you're understanding what it means to advance- at least you're not understanding my view of it...

In my opinion human beings stopped advancing around the time the first great civilizations began in Sumer and Egypt. Since then, we've yet to evolve past this "civilization" stage to something more advance- its the same basic structure with different names and nuances... And, advances in technology are NOT advances in humanity in my eyes... An advancement in humanity would be like telekinesis or some X Men shit or something... Using better tools doesn't make us better BEINGS...

Only someone ignorant would call profit from the suffering and destruction of people/animals/nature human advancement...

[Joro]

Originally Posted by Noib Da Mutt

My first statement was pointing out the fallacy of your argument- it wasn't an argument at all... The second portion was my opinion...

So, to address your comments though...

I don't think you're understanding what it means to advance- at least you're not understanding my view of it...

In my opinion human beings stopped advancing around the time the first great civilizations began in Sumer and Egypt. Since then, we've yet to evolve past this "civilization" stage to something more advance- its the same basic structure with different names and nuances... And, advances in technology are NOT advances in humanity in my eyes... An advancement in humanity would be like telekinesis or some X Men shit or something... Using better tools doesn't make us better BEINGS...

Only someone ignorant would call profit from the suffering and destruction of people/animals/nature human advancement...

Then stop trying to point out "fallacies" in my argument and realize that we're saying the same thing.

If, according to you, real "human advancement" is when we develop our mental powers and also realize that the earth and everything in it is a part of us and integral to our existence....then we're not really talking about "human advancement" now are we. We're talking about the advancement of LIFE. Which was my original point...see post #5 of this thread.

[Noib Da Mutt]

Originally Posted by Joro

Then stop trying to point out "fallacies" in my argument and realize that we're saying the same thing.

If, according to you, real "human advancement" is when we develop our mental powers and also realize that the earth and everything in it is a part of us and integral to our existence....then we're not really talking about "human advancement" now are we. We're talking about the advancement of LIFE. Which was my original point...see post #5 of this thread.

hey, you're the one that called yourself disagreeing with my "specieism" or whatever... I merely wanted to clarify exactly what it was that I was talking about in my post...

[Joro]

exactly. so instead of trying correct me, you should've clarified your point...as I forced you to.

[Noib Da Mutt]

Originally Posted by Joro

exactly. so instead of trying correct me, you should've clarified your point...as I forced you to.

ok then... *Last Word*