For those that accuse Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) of being a pedophile

[Thrilla-Ali]

Directed to athiests, christians, jews and agnostics alike..

First i will start out with the clinical definition of pedophilia

Pedophilia or paedophilia (Commonwealth usage) is the primary or exclusive sexual attraction of adults to prepubescent children. A person with this attraction is called a pedophile or paedophile.

Prophet muhammad (pbuh) married old woman, even older than him. Aisha was the only wife who was very young.

Marriage for young girls was widely practiced among Semites back then, during biblical times. No-one had any objections to these marriages because it was the cultural norm back then. Even today, (Muslims and non-Muslims alike), little girls as young as 9 or 10 do get married.

It has been over a thousand years since that age. Even now, in some parts of the world, children are infinitely more mature than they are in the west. They attain mental maturity at a much faster rate, because of the circumstances that they live in. Some 10 year olds even have jobs, others are able to take care of their entire families. To classify any and all children as being nothing more than children isn't true. And to classify a prodigy like A'isha as being nothing more than a child is to do injustice to her. 15yr olds use to lead armies and conquer countries back then.. young men were warriors back then fighting in wars..

If you check out Islamic History, you will find examples where Muslims both male and female at very young age have done things which even 50 year olds at our time cannot comprehend doing.

As for this being a cultural norm in Arabia and other semite lands, check out the reports.

Imam Ash-Shafi'e said: "During my stay in Yemen I have come across girls at the age of nine who menstruated so often."

He (Ash-Shafi'e) also said: I have seen in the city of Sana'a a grandmother while she was twenty one. She menstruated at the age of nine and gave birth at the age of 10

Ibn Al-Jawzi narrated similar stories from Ibn U'qail and Abbad ibn Abbad Al-Muhlabi.
Abbad ibn Abbad Al-Muhlabi said: "I have witnessed a woman from Muhlabah who become a grandmother at the age of eighteen. She gave birth (to her daughter) at the age of nine and her daughter gave birth to her child at the age of nine (as well), so the woman became a grandmother at the age of eighteen

It is important to know that girls during the Biblical and Islamic days used to be married off at young ages when they had their first periods. Prophet Muhammad's marriage with Aisha was 100% legal and acceptable by all laws and Divine Religions. As a matter of fact, during these times young marriages were evident in all continents (Africa, Asia, Europe...)

- The minimum age for marriage under Jewish law is 13 for boys, 12 for girls; however, the kiddushin can take place before that, and often did in medieval times.

- Child brides as young as 8 (eight) were common among the Byzantine emperors and nobility.

http://www.roman-emperors.org/aggiefran.htm

This was also apparent in late 19th century AMERICA

In the late nineteenth century,"Age of consent" referred to the legal age at which a girl could consent to sexual relations. Men who engaged in sexual relations with girls who had not reached the age of consent could be criminally prosecuted. American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven. Women reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 to petition legislators to raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen, although their ultimate goal was to raise the age to eighteen. The campaign was eventually quite successful; by 1920, almost all states had raised the age of consent to sixteen or eighteen.

http://womhist.alexanderstreet.com/teacher/aoc.htm

As a matter of fact, it still is...

Age of consensual sex even today is subjective. In Ontario, Canada it's 16 and in British Columbia, Canada it's 14. In Holland it's 12 years old, 14 in Italy, France 15, Germany 16, Ireland 17, UK 16

As for the holy bible (since many christians like to attack muslims on this claim. Also because too many people emphasizing on islam but not christianity and judaism [scape-goating]).

- Many jews and roman catholics believe mary was 12-14 years of age when she had jesus. Jospeh engaged in sexual acts with mary, who was much older than her (perhaps 35-43 years of age). It was culturally common at that time for much older men to wed younger women. Assuming that Joseph was a successful businessman (a carpenter), this would seem likely.

- Abraham slept with a slave GIRL (hagar) to produce ishmail, he was 86 years old.

With that said, I wouldn't be surprised if some concubines and wives of solomon, his father (david) and his son (Rehoboam) were young girls.

- The holy bible indirectly supports the marriage of young girls as well, hence

"If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.
"If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her."If he designates her for his son [Note: "his son" means that the master is either her father's age or even much older!], he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters.

The fact that the master can either marry her or marry her off to his son, means that MOST LIKELY, SHE IS HIS DAUGHTER'S AGE and younger than his son!! So he's probably at least 30+ years older than her. Yet, he himself (her father's age or even MUCH older) can marry her.

- Keeping in mind the ideas of "political correctness" and "absolute morality", in Biblical times the
age at which a girl could marry was puberty. However, during the Middle Ages it was usually
twelve years old. Now in most "Christian" countries it is between fourteen and sixteen years
old.

[The Giant]

He was a great con-artist like the rest.I'm not going to Hell for saying it.

[Thrilla-Ali]

Originally Posted by The Giant

He was a great con-artist like the rest.I'm not going to Hell for saying it.

And your just a perfect person right?

[menaz]

He was a pedophile and you just admit to it. it was ethically wrong. If Muhammad was a messenger of God or an honorable man, as he made his Allah to proclaim him thus, he should have known that what he was doing was dishonorable and unethical.

Infact, you listed a lot of religious influence which gave the acts of pedophila the thumbs up. You're argument of pointing to other religiously influenced pedophila to justify muslim pedophila is illogical. They were all wrong. You're just going to have to realize sticking your dick in a little child of nine years is pedophila. These sex offences rob children of their childhood.

So the question is thrilla are you still advocating sex slaves and pedophila? Also thrilla how old is your girl friend, six, seven, eight, nine? I'm aware mohammad married Aisha at six years old. It was not a dynastic marriage either, he had his eye on her since she was six. The issue is "uswa hasana", a model for all time, whatever Muhammad does is what Muslims must do, throughout time and space.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha: "that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years"

What is the point of this thread. To exclaim mohammad is a pedophile like alot of other religiously influenced were from different cultures? So it's fine to engage in sex acts with children? This thread pretty much says to me you advocate acts of pedophila with nine year olds as fine and dandy. What will you advocate next, incest? Incest with children? After all, they did it back then. However, that doesn't mean it was right and none of that makes it acceptable.

And "the gaint" might not be a perfect person, but one thing I'll beat he is not is a pedophile, an advocate of pedophila, nor a religious follower of a muslim leader who was infact a pedophile.

[barnizzle]

damn, never knew this.

[Thrilla-Ali]

Originally Posted by menaz

He was a pedophile and you just admit to it. it was ethically wrong. If Muhammad was a messenger of God or an honorable man, as he made his Allah to proclaim him thus, he should have known that what he was doing was dishonorable and unethical.

Infact, you listed a lot of religious influence which gave the acts of pedophila the thumbs up. You're argument of pointing to other religiously influenced pedophila to justify muslim pedophila is illogical. They were all wrong. You're just going to have to realize sticking your dick in a little child of nine years is pedophila. These sex offences rob children of their childhood.

So the question is thrilla are you still advocating sex slaves and pedophila? Also thrilla how old is your girl friend, six, seven, eight, nine? I'm aware mohammad married Aisha at six years old. It was not a dynastic marriage either, he had his eye on her since she was six. The issue is "uswa hasana", a model for all time, whatever Muhammad does is what Muslims must do, throughout time and space.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha: "that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years"

What is the point of this thread. To exclaim mohammad is a pedophile like alot of other religiously influenced were from different cultures? So it's fine to engage in sex acts with children? This thread pretty much says to me you advocate acts of pedophila with nine year olds as fine and dandy. What will you advocate next, incest? Incest with children? After all, they did it back then. However, that doesn't mean it was right and none of that makes it acceptable.

And "the gaint" might not be a perfect person, but one thing I'll beat he is not is a pedophile, an advocate of pedophila, nor a religious follower of a muslim leader who was infact a pedophile.

Was it Muhammad's fault though? That was the cultural norm.. and he didn't have a fixation for children, which is the clinical definition of pedophilia ..

According to this line of thinking.. Abraham, Jospeph, and others mentioned in the bible are pedophiles too.. Both Abraham and Jospeh had sex with young girls.. yet 33% of the worlds population is Christian.. so why do people like you only choose to focus/scape goat on islam?

Also, Muhammad did not marry aisha at six, he married her at nine. The point of this thread is to point out the hypocrisy of people who solely attack Islam to nourish their own personal vendetta on islam. However, they say nothing about Judaism or Christianity.. as if sex slaves aren't in the OT and NT..

Originally Posted by Menaz

If Muhammad was a messenger of God or an honorable man, as he made his Allah to proclaim him thus, he should have known that what he was doing was dishonorable and unethical.

How could he have "known" when in his culture it was a norm?

Originally Posted by Menaz

You're just going to have to realize sticking your dick in a little child of nine years is pedophila. These sex offences rob children of their childhood.

It is forbidden in Islam to marry a person who doesn't want to be married. Aisha agreed to the marriage and sp did her parents. As a matter of fact, she was suppose to marry another man but the engagement was broken. It did not rob Aisha of her childhood, she had a lot of respect for the prophet Muhammad pbuh (check hadiths) and she was an islamic scholar and a prodigy. She was just fine with the Marriage, so how can you say it robbed her of her childhood then?

[Leila Night]

^Don't be so quick to believe lies, guy. Geez, people are utterly credulous. (@ Bar)



Two years after marrying the Prophet (P), Hazrat Ayesha participated in a battle... yeah, She wasn't nine, fellas, as no one younger than fifteen was allowed to fight.

Plus, she converted to Islam around 610 C.E. and her marriage to the Prophet took place after the pilgrimage (Hijrah) in 622 C.E. Conversion requires a certain level of... maturity, I believe. Of course, Ayesha was renown for her brilliance... ahaha.

The idea of Ayesha being nine, etc. is based on hadith that is considered inauthentic... at best. The weightiness of hadith is based on a chain of narration and the certainty of that decides the authenticity of the hadith.


And none of this is fact, as it is all based on hadith, but there is certainly more pieces of authentic proof in hadith of her maturity then her absolute youth (where there isn't any authentic proof).





And for everyone who believes Islam is unfair to women, please consider the example of Ayesha: a revered warrior considered one of the most knowledgeable of the Prophet's (P) sahaba (companions) and an example for all Muslims.

[Leila Night]

Originally Posted by Thrilla-Ali

- Abraham slept with a slave GIRL (hagar) to produce ishmail, he was 86 years old.

Yeah, no one knows Hagar's age... so...

Also, she conceived a child... so, She wasn't a kid.

[Thrilla-Ali]

Originally Posted by Leila Night

Yeah, no one knows Hagar's age... so...

Also, she conceived a child... so, She wasn't a kid.

Yes she was.. she was a slave girl. If it's possible for a nine year old to have children, then I'm sure its possible for a 12 year old or younger...

Imam Ash-Shafi'e said: "During my stay in Yemen I have come across girls at the age of nine who menstruated so often."

He (Ash-Shafi'e) also said: I have seen in the city of Sana'a a grandmother while she was twenty one. She menstruated at the age of nine and gave birth at the age of 10

Ibn Al-Jawzi narrated similar stories from Ibn U'qail and Abbad ibn Abbad Al-Muhlabi.
Abbad ibn Abbad Al-Muhlabi said: "I have witnessed a woman from Muhlabah who become a grandmother at the age of eighteen. She gave birth (to her daughter) at the age of nine and her daughter gave birth to her child at the age of nine (as well), so the woman became a grandmother at the age of eighteen

The minimum age for marriage under Jewish law is 13 for boys, 12 for girls; however, the kiddushin can take place before that, and often did in medieval times.

[Leila Night]

'Girl' doesn't denote age.

[Thrilla-Ali]

Originally Posted by Leila Night

^Don't be so quick to believe lies, guy. Geez, people are utterly credulous. (@ Bar)



Two years after marrying the Prophet (P), Hazrat Ayesha participated in a battle... yeah, She wasn't nine, fellas, as no one younger than fifteen was allowed to fight.

Plus, she converted to Islam around 610 C.E. and her marriage to the Prophet took place after the pilgrimage (Hijrah) in 622 C.E. Conversion requires a certain level of... maturity, I believe. Of course, Ayesha was renown for her brilliance... ahaha.

The idea of Ayesha being nine, etc. is based on hadith that is considered inauthentic... at best. The weightiness of hadith is based on a chain of narration and the certainty of that decides the authenticity of the hadith.


And none of this is fact, as it is all based on hadith, but there is certainly more pieces of authentic proof in hadith of her maturity then her absolute youth (where there isn't any authentic proof).





And for everyone who believes Islam is unfair to women, please consider the example of Ayesha: a revered warrior considered one of the most knowledgeable of the Prophet's (P) sahaba (companions) and an example for all Muslims.

Read this please..


The claim

http://www.ilaam.net/Articles/Ayesha.html

The rebuttal (look closely because there's no seperation line or quotation between each refutation)

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...ID=4604&CATE=1

PDF files (these PDF files are probably the best info on the web that you can obtain on this issue and it will clarify everything for you)

Aisha's young marriage

http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/aishamarriage.pdf

The Age of Aishah's Marriage Between Historians and Hadith Scholars-1.pdf

http://www.esnips.com/nsdoc/3586fc87...4-7696e97226ce

[Thrilla-Ali]

Originally Posted by Leila Night

'Girl' doesn't denote age.

A girl is a female child, an immature woman.. i hope you did your studies on semitic culture.. young marriages were a norm.. we cannot judge them in todays society that we live in, because our minds have been conditioned in a much different manner.. our culture today is very different

Originally Posted by Leila Night

And none of this is fact, as it is all based on hadith, but there is certainly more pieces of authentic proof in hadith of her maturity then her absolute youth (where there isn't any authentic proof).

Aisha narrated those hadiths too.. also, these hadiths are found in (1)Bukhari (2)Muslim (3)Abu dawood...

On several occasions, all stating that she was nine years old.

[barnizzle]

Originally Posted by Leila Night

^Don't be so quick to believe lies, guy. Geez, people are utterly credulous. (@ Bar)



Two years after marrying the Prophet (P), Hazrat Ayesha participated in a battle... yeah, She wasn't nine, fellas, as no one younger than fifteen was allowed to fight.

Plus, she converted to Islam around 610 C.E. and her marriage to the Prophet took place after the pilgrimage (Hijrah) in 622 C.E. Conversion requires a certain level of... maturity, I believe. Of course, Ayesha was renown for her brilliance... ahaha.

The idea of Ayesha being nine, etc. is based on hadith that is considered inauthentic... at best. The weightiness of hadith is based on a chain of narration and the certainty of that decides the authenticity of the hadith.


And none of this is fact, as it is all based on hadith, but there is certainly more pieces of authentic proof in hadith of her maturity then her absolute youth (where there isn't any authentic proof).





And for everyone who believes Islam is unfair to women, please consider the example of Ayesha: a revered warrior considered one of the most knowledgeable of the Prophet's (P) sahaba (companions) and an example for all Muslims.

i was being sarcastic...miss night.

[menaz]

Was it Muhammad's fault though? That was the cultural norm.. and he didn't have a fixation for children, which is the clinical definition of pedophilia ..

I pointed it out here: "it was ethically wrong. If Muhammad was a messenger of God or an honorable man, as he made his Allah to proclaim him thus, he should have known that what he was doing was dishonorable and unethical." i.e. If he is a prophet of allah as you claim he should of been above the norm. Moreover, islamic scholar Muhammad Ali Al-hannoti noted: "Muhammads marriage to Asiha was will of Allah and, Allah usually is not the one who we are allowed to argue with for any ordinance or commandment." The Qur’an 21:23 says: "He is not questioned for what he does, but they (people) are questioned for what they do." i.e. Allah wasn't against Muhammads pedophilia because mohammad enjoyed pedophila. Allah doesn't exist. Allah is nothing more than a tool selfishly utlized by muhammad to justify his pedophile behavior as righteous. When he could of utilized allah to do the complete opposite speaking out against pedophilia.

According to this line of thinking.. Abraham, Jospeph, and others mentioned in the bible are pedophiles too.. Both Abraham and Jospeh had sex with young girls.. yet 33% of the worlds population is Christian.. so why do people like you only choose to focus/scape goat on islam?

You didn't read a word I said. I didn't scapegoat. You tried to scapegoat. You tried to justify muhammads pedophilia by pointing to other religions that condoned pedophilia. I agree they all condoned pedophilia. Now you are commiting the straw man fallacy of misrepresenting my position. You're line of thinking (Taqqiyah) has put you in a carious position, you have no other choice but to accept muhammad as a pedophile. Having sex with a nine yearold child is just that pedophilia. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pedophila. You're basically telling me you as a muslim have no moral compass, because you keep trying to justify the act of pedophilia.

Also, Muhammad did not marry aisha at six, he married her at nine.

I provided the proof. Whether you agree or not is irrelevent to this fact.

"Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 (most reliable and most prestigious of the collections of hadith.) Narrated 'Aisha: "that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years"

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated Aisha:"I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)"



SAHIH AL BUKHARI: (d 256/870). Generally accepted to be the most reliable and most prestigious of the collections of hadith. It is a Jami collection and a msuannaf. Al Bukhari was said to have revised it three times. Al Bukhari sought to list only hadiths which possessed uninterrupted chains of credible authorities. He wished to impress the contents on the rader and to that end divided the book into more than 100 chapters with 3450 subsections, each with a heading to indicate its contents. http://members.cox.net/arshad/hadithcol.html

The point of this thread is to point out the hypocrisy of people who solely attack Islam to nourish their own personal vendetta on islam. However, they say nothing about Judaism or Christianity.. as if sex slaves aren't in the OT and NT..

There hasn't been any conversations on islam on here. Noone has slammed islam ethier. You came in here trying to slam others as if that justifies muhammads pedophile behavior which obviously it doesn't and this bothers you. I.e. your thread failed majorly because there is only one hypocrite here and that is turning out to be you.

The new testament condoned sex slaves. Judaism condoned sex slaves in the old testament as well. Back to my point: The fact is, Mohammad doesn't get a free pass on sex slaves issue either. Sex slaves are still legitimently traded in Islamic nations today. Don't deny the truth about mohammad other wise you become the hypocrite and loose all creditablity. At this point, You must denounce child marriages undertaken in imitation of Muhammad, and declare Muhammad's example unacceptable. But I don't think you will because you infact advocate pedophilia and sex slaves. http://www.mslna.com/news1.html

It is forbidden in Islam to marry a person who doesn't want to be married. Aisha agreed to the marriage and sp did her parents. As a matter of fact, she was suppose to marry another man but the engagement was broken. It did not rob Aisha of her childhood, she had a lot of respect for the prophet Muhammad pbuh (check hadiths) and she was an islamic scholar and a prodigy. She was just fine with the Marriage, so how can you say it robbed her of her childhood then?

i.e. you do advocate Pedophilia? And Islam does advocate muhammad's act of pedophila as a righteous act which other muslims like yourself have no problem imitating? http://www.islam-watch.org/AyeshaAhm...-Practised.htm By the way, thanks for not answering one question I posed to you. I expected as much.

[Leila Night]

Originally Posted by Thrilla-Ali

A girl is a female child, an immature woman.. i hope you did your studies on semitic culture.. young marriages were a norm.. we cannot judge them in todays society that we live in, because our minds have been conditioned in a much different manner.. our culture today is very different

Um, yeah... so at what age does a female stop being a girl and become a woman?

This is what is known as word games.

Aisha narrated those hadiths too.. also, these hadiths are found in (1)Bukhari (2)Muslim (3)Abu dawood...

On several occasions, all stating that she was nine years old.

Utter nonsense. You're saying that hadith are fact? And not graded on strength of authenticity? There is a weakness in the chain of narration... which are all based on the reporting of the then aging Hisham ibn Urwa... which he based on the authority of his father.

Facts (more or less):

- The birth date of Aisha's half-sister Asma can be deduced: She edied in 693 at 100 years old and she was ten years older than Aisha... making Aisha's birth date 603 C.E. Also, it is almost unanimous that Asma was at least 27 years of age at the time of the first hijrah making Aisha at least 17 years old at the time and 18-19 years old when she married the Prophet (P).

- uh, yeah, She FOUGHT IN A BATTLE in 624 C.E. Don't think she did that at eleven years old. She had to at least be 15 to do so as such were the Prophet's (P) stipulations at the time for women.

- She was one of the first to convert to Islam around 610 C.E. along with her father Abu Bakr.

- All of Abu Bakr's children were born before 610 C.E.


- From Maulana Muhammad Ali's Living Thoughts of the Prophet Muhammad:

A great misconception prevails as to the age at which Aisha was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sa‘d has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr [father of Aisha] was approached on behalf of the Holy Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that Aisha must have been approaching majority at the time. Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet’s daughter Fatima, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than Aisha. This shows that Aisha must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be. This is further borne out by the fact that Aisha herself is reported to have stated that when the chapter [of the Holy Quran] entitled The Moon, the fifty-fourth chapter, was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call. All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that Aisha could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal. And there is one report in the Tabaqat that Aisha was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of Aisha took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal, while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijra in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence there is not the least doubt that Aisha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage.

So, at the youngest... Aisha was 14 when she married, but there is evidence she was considerably older than that even.

[Thrilla-Ali]

1. First i will start off with sex slaves in the bible..

The following passage describes sex slavery.

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. [Note: "his son" means that the master is either her father's age or even much older!]

So a man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and has sex with them

2. Aisha was engaged to Muhammad (pbuh) at the age of six, but he married her at the age of nine. (that's why she moved into his house at nine, duh?)

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

He was waiting till she hit puberty. That's when the marriage was sealed (like an engagement).

3. How do you know god found young marriages unethical back in the early centuries, a primitive time? Are you god? As a matter of fact, the minimum age for marriage under Jewish law was 13 for boys, 12 for girls. So i ask you again, how do you know god found it unethical back then? It made sense at that time, but not today... we have evolved from biblical times and the mind-set of society is different now. I guess every Semite living in the 7th century was a pedophile too since it was a cultural norm, right menaz?

. Aisha had a choice weather to accept the marriage or not, she accepted.

. Her parents accepted

. It did not raise any brows for it was a cultural norm

So then what was wrong about it at that time if it was accepted by everyone including the bride?

4. You always scape goat islam here on rm.com - - no poster here is unaware of that. If you think Judaism and Christianity is 'better' than islam by way of scripture (which i think you do), we can go quote for quote = ) I will pretend I'm an atheist just like you to prove my point, and do it solidly. Contrary to what you might think.. the OT is also a christian book. Don't forget that the god of the NT is the same god of the OT.. LoL

5. Age of consensual sex and marriage is subjective. So lets also keep that in mind..

This was also apparent in late 19th century AMERICA

In the late nineteenth century,"Age of consent" referred to the legal age at which a girl could consent to sexual relations. Men who engaged in sexual relations with girls who had not reached the age of consent could be criminally prosecuted. American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven. Women reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 to petition legislators to raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen, although their ultimate goal was to raise the age to eighteen. The campaign was eventually quite successful; by 1920, almost all states had raised the age of consent to sixteen or eighteen.

http://womhist.alexanderstreet.com/teacher/aoc.htm

As a matter of fact, it still is...

Age of consensual sex even today is subjective. In Ontario, Canada it's 16 and in British Columbia, Canada it's 14. In Holland it's 12 years old, 14 in Italy, France 15, Germany 16, Ireland 17, UK 16

Originally Posted by menaz

This thread pretty much says to me you advocate acts of pedophila with nine year olds as fine and dandy.

I don't advocate pedophilia. If i lived in the 7th century, i wouldn't have a problem with young marriages because my mind would be conditioned to accept it.

Originally Posted by menaz

I pointed it out here: "it was ethically wrong. If Muhammad was a messenger of God or an honorable man, as he made his Allah to proclaim him thus, he should have known that what he was doing was dishonorable and unethical." i.e. If he is a prophet of allah as you claim he should of been above the norm.Allah doesn't exist. Allah is nothing more than a tool selfishly utlized by muhammad to justify his pedophile behavior as righteous. When he could of utilized allah to do the complete opposite speaking out against pedophilia.

How can he live "above the norm" if that was the norm? Since you claim he's not a prophet and "Allah" doesn't exist, why would he need to use "Allah" as a tool for pedophilia, when young marriages were already the norm to begin with? What your saying makes no sense... he wouldn't need a 'tool' at all... according to your own line of thinking, he was an average man living in 7th century norms (since you believe he wasn't a prophet).

Also, a pedophile is attracted to children only, but how come his other wives were either older than him or very mature in age? He even bore children with his other wives and loved them, as he did with Aisha. Put it together, young marriages were a norm and they didn't hurt or startle anyone at that time. God works with cultural norms, more over, i stress that he only had one wife of that age.

[Thrilla-Ali]

Originally Posted by Leila Night

Utter nonsense. You're saying that hadith are fact? And not graded on strength of authenticity? There is a weakness in the chain of narration... which are all based on the reporting of the then aging Hisham ibn Urwa... which he based on the authority of his father.

Read (it's quite evident you never took a look at the links i provided, which already answers these questions)

The Islamic Evidence of 'Aisha's Age

Due to the apparent ignorance of many Muslims, possibly due to reading "modernist" apologetic literature like that mentioned above, a look at what the authentic sources of Islam say about the age at which 'Aishah married the Prophet (P) is in order. This way, before we move on to an analysis of the facts, we will first establish what the authentic Islamic facts are. At this point, it should be mentioned that it is absolutely pointless from an Islamic standpoint to say that the age of 'Aishah is "not found in the Qur'an", since the textual sources of Islam are made up of BOTH the Qur'an and the Sunnah - and the Qur'an tells us that. Now in regards to what the authentic Islamic sources actually say, it may come as a disappointment to some "modern" and "cultured" Muslims that there are four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari and three ahadith in Saheeh Muslim which clearly state that 'Aishah was "nine years old" at the time that her marriage was consummated with the Prophet (P). These ahadith, with only slight variation, read as follows:
'Aishah, may God be pleased with her, narrated that the Prophet (P) was betrothed (zawaj) to her when she was six years old and he consummated (nikah) his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years. (Saheeh al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64) Of the four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aishah as a narrator. Additionally, all of the ahadith in both books agree that the marriage betrothal contract took place when 'Aishah was "six years old", but was not consummated until she was "nine years old". Additionally, a hadeeth with basically the same text (matn) is reported in Sunan Abu Dawood. Needless to say, this evidence is—Islamically speaking—overwhelmingly strong and Muslims who deny it do so only by sacrificing their intellectual honesty, pure faith or both. This evidence having been established, there doesn't seem much room for debate about 'Aishah's age amongst believing Muslims. Until someone proves that in the Arabic language "nine years old" means something other than "nine years old", then we should all be firm in our belief that she was "nine years old" (as if there's a reason
or need to believe otherwise!?!). In spite of these facts, there are still some Muslim authors that have somehow (?) managed to push 'Aishah's age out to as far as "fourteen or fifteen years old" at the time of her marriage to the Prophet (P). It should come as no surprise, however, that none of them ever offer any proof, evidence or references for their opinions. This can be said with the utmost confidence, since certainly none of them can produce sources more authentic than the hadeeth collections of Imams al-Bukhari and Muslim! Based on the research that I've done, I feel that there is a common source for those who claim that 'Aishah's age was "fourteen
or fifteen years old" at the time of the marriage. This source is "The Biographies of Prominent Muslims" which is published in book form, on CD-ROM and is posted in several places on the Internet. Just another example of why going to the sources is important . . .

Originally Posted by Leila Night

Facts (more or less):

- The birth date of Aisha's half-sister Asma can be deduced: She edied in 693 at 100 years old and she was ten years older than Aisha... making Aisha's birth date 603 C.E. Also, it is almost unanimous that Asma was at least 27 years of age at the time of the first hijrah making Aisha at least 17 years old at the time and 18-19 years old when she married the Prophet (P).

Shaykh Gibril F Haddad on this issue

Ibn Hajar reports in al-Isaba from Hisham ibn `Urwa, from his father, that Asma' did live 100 years, and from Abu Nu`aym al-Asbahani that "Asma' bint Abi Bakr was born 27 years before the Hijra, and she lived until the beginning of the year 74." None of this amounts to any proof for `A'isha's age whatsoever

Originally Posted by Leila Night

- uh, yeah, She FOUGHT IN A BATTLE in 624 C.E. Don't think she did that at eleven years old. She had to at least be 15 to do so as such were the Prophet's (P) stipulations at the time for women.

Shaykh Gibril F Haddad on this issue

First, the prohibition applied to combatants. It applied neither to non-combatant boys nor to non-combatant girls and women. Second, `A'isha did not participate in Badr at all but bade farewell to the combatants as they were leaving Madina, as narrated by Muslim in his Sahih. On the day of Uhud (year 3), Anas, at the time only twelve or thirteen years old, reports seeing an eleven-year old `A'isha and his mother Umm Sulaym having tied up their dresses and carrying water skins back and forth to the combatants, as narrated by al-Bukhari and Muslim.

Originally Posted by Leila Night

- She was one of the first to convert to Islam around 610 C.E. along with her father Abu Bakr.

- All of Abu Bakr's children were born before 610 C.E.

Shaykh Gibril F Haddad on this issue

Nowhere does Ibn Hisham say this.

Rather, Ibn Hisham lists `A'isha among "those that accepted Islam because of Abu Bakr." This does not mean that she embraced Islam during the first year of Islam. Nor does it mean that she necessarily embraced Islam before `Umar (year 6) although she was born the previous year (year 7 before the Hijra) although it is understood she will automatically follow her father's choice even before the age of reason.

Al-Tabari nowhere reports that "Abu Bakr's four children were all born in Jahiliyya" but only that Abu Bakr married both their mothers in Jahiliyya, Qutayla bint Sa`d and Umm Ruman, who bore him four children in all, two each, `A'isha being the daughter of Umm Ruman.

[Thrilla-Ali]

Originally Posted by Leila Night

Um, yeah... so at what age does a female stop being a girl and become a woman?

When she starts having her period.

A girl can be engaged prior to puberty, but consummation and her moving into his home occurs at the onset of puberty. The prophet, peace be upon him, didn’t consummate his marriage with Aicha when she was six. He consummated his marriage with her three years later. The reason for this was that they were waiting for her to come of age, i.e. to have her first menstrual period. Puberty is a biological sign which shows that a women is capable of bearing children. Now if a marriage could be consummated at any age with a girl, then certainly the prophet, peace be upon him, would have consummated his marriage with Aicha when she was six, however he never did this for a reason, he waited until she reached puberty

(There is no orphan after the age of puberty nor vowing to be silent throughout the day to the night.) In another Hadith, `A'ishah and other Companions said that the Prophet said,

(The pen does not record the deeds of three persons: the child until the age of puberty, the sleeping person until waking up, and the senile until sane.) Or, the age of fifteen is considered the age of adolescence.
In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Ibn `Umar said, "I was presented in front of the Prophet on the eve of the battle of Uhud, while I was fourteen years of age, and he did not allow me to take part in that battle. But I was presented in front of him on the eve of the battle of Al-Khandaq (The Trench) when I was fifteen years old, and he allowed me (to join that battle).'' `

Umar bin `Abdul-`Aziz commented when this Hadith reached him, "This is the difference between a child and an adult.''

There is a difference of opinion over whether pubic hair is considered a sign of adulthood, and the correct opinion is that it is. The Sunnah supports this view, according to a Hadith collected by Imam Ahmad from `Atiyah Al-Qurazi who said, We were presented to the Prophet on the day of Qurizah, whoever had pubic hair was killed, whoever did not was left free to go, I was one of those who did not, so I was left free.'' The Four Sunan compilers also recorded similar to it.

Originally Posted by Leila Night

Utter nonsense. You're saying that hadith are fact?

Taken from Muhammad's (pbuh) last sermon

O People, NO PROPHET OR MESSENGER WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I am leaving you with the Book of God (the QUR'AN*) and my SUNNAH (Hadith), if you follow them you will never go astray.

As you can see, Hadith taken from Bukhari, muslim, abu dawood (especially if reported on several occasions) are all fact, especially those from Bukhari. The prophets left his wisdom/hadith for us to follow, don't wave a blind eye to that

[Leila Night]

Originally Posted by Thrilla-Ali

Read (it's quite evident you never took a look at the links i provided, which already answers these questions)

I prefer doing my own research on these matters... for good reason too.

Shaykh Gibril F Haddad on this issue

Ibn Hajar reports in al-Isaba from Hisham ibn `Urwa, from his father, that Asma' did live 100 years, and from Abu Nu`aym al-Asbahani that "Asma' bint Abi Bakr was born 27 years before the Hijra, and she lived until the beginning of the year 74." None of this amounts to any proof for `A'isha's age whatsoever

Ibn Kathir:
“Asma died in 73 A.H. at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha.”

Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib (Who wrote in the 1300s) on Asma:
“She was the sister of Aisha Siddiqa, wife of the Holy Prophet, and was ten years older than her. … In 73 A.H. … Asma died at the age of one hundred years.”

That's two sources, one classical therefore not "apologist" as you say, confirming the 10 year age difference between Aisha and Asma.

Shaykh Gibril F Haddad on this issue

First, the prohibition applied to combatants. It applied neither to non-combatant boys nor to non-combatant girls and women. Second, `A'isha did not participate in Badr at all but bade farewell to the combatants as they were leaving Madina, as narrated by Muslim in his Sahih. On the day of Uhud (year 3), Anas, at the time only twelve or thirteen years old, reports seeing an eleven-year old `A'isha and his mother Umm Sulaym having tied up their dresses and carrying water skins back and forth to the combatants, as narrated by al-Bukhari and Muslim.

Yeah, so you basically have one source for all this? Seems fair to me. Anyway, I've never heard any of this and to my knowledge, Aisha did participate in the raid and had subsequently participated in other defensive efforts.

Nowhere does Ibn Hisham say this.

Rather, Ibn Hisham lists `A'isha among "those that accepted Islam because of Abu Bakr." This does not mean that she embraced Islam during the first year of Islam. Nor does it mean that she necessarily embraced Islam before `Umar (year 6) although she was born the previous year (year 7 before the Hijra) although it is understood she will automatically follow her father's choice even before the age of reason.

Aisha herself has said:

“Since I reached the age when I could remember things, I have seen my parents worshipping according to the right faith of Islam. Not a single day passed but Allah’s Apostle visited us both in the morning and in the evening. When the Muslims were persecuted, Abu Bakr set out for Ethiopia as an emigrant.”

Abu Bakr left for Ethiopia in 617 (could she remember that if she was three yrs old, etc.?)... Use your judgment; at what age do children begin 'remembering things?'

Al-Tabari nowhere reports that "Abu Bakr's four children were all born in Jahiliyya" but only that Abu Bakr married both their mothers in Jahiliyya, Qutayla bint Sa`d and Umm Ruman, who bore him four children in all, two each, `A'isha being the daughter of Umm Ruman.

No. Al-Tabari says:

“In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of Abdul Uzza, from whom Abdullah and Asma were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom Abdur Rahman and Aisha were born. These four were born before Islam.”

Before the Call, 610 C.E.

Originally Posted by Thrilla-Ali

When she starts having her period.

And females are never referred to as girls after this point? I'm sorry, the word 'girl' denotes youth, yes, but nothing more in the conventional sense. 'Girl' is not a scientific term...

As you can see, Hadith taken from Bukhari, muslim, abu dawood (especially if reported on several occasions) are all fact, especially those from Bukhari. The prophets left his wisdom/hadith for us to follow, don't wave a blind eye to that

Sunnah is for following in the path of the prophet, yes, but it is NOT fact. Only Qur'an is because it's the only written part of Islam that has not changed and remains uncorrupted by language, etc.

Plus, the age of Aisha is hardly a part of Sunnah... which is probably why the narrators were less than diligent in recording it.

[Thrilla-Ali]

Originally Posted by Leila Night

I prefer doing my own research on these matters... for good reason too.

If we all did our "own research" there would be no need for scholars. Obviously scholars exist to help people understand islam, they help clear up any misconceptions and contribute to the prevention of innovative beliefs (such as yours). Most people cannot achieve the level of knowledge scholars have, societies need their scholars.
With that said, islamic scholars don't support your view on this issue.

I offer you to read this yet again. If you don't, i got nothing more to say to you unless it bears more weight than the sahih books i've quoted (bukhari and muslim)

http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/aishamarriage.pdf

http://www.esnips.com/nsdoc/3586fc87...4-7696e97226ce

Originally Posted by Leila Night

Ibn Kathir:
“Asma died in 73 A.H. at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister Aisha.”

Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib (Who wrote in the 1300s) on Asma:
“She was the sister of Aisha Siddiqa, wife of the Holy Prophet, and was ten years older than her. … In 73 A.H. … Asma died at the age of one hundred years.”

That's two sources, one classical therefore not "apologist" as you say, confirming the 10 year age difference between Aisha and Asma.



Aisha herself has said:

“Since I reached the age when I could remember things, I have seen my parents worshipping according to the right faith of Islam. Not a single day passed but Allah’s Apostle visited us both in the morning and in the evening. When the Muslims were persecuted, Abu Bakr set out for Ethiopia as an emigrant.”

Abu Bakr left for Ethiopia in 617 (could she remember that if she was three yrs old, etc.?)... Use your judgment; at what age do children begin 'remembering things?'


No. Al-Tabari says:

“In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of Abdul Uzza, from whom Abdullah and Asma were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom Abdur Rahman and Aisha were born. These four were born before Islam.”

Before the Call, 610 C.E.


Sunnah is for following in the path of the prophet, yes, but it is NOT fact. Only Qur'an is because it's the only written part of Islam that has not changed and remains uncorrupted by language, etc.

Plus, the age of Aisha is hardly a part of Sunnah... which is probably why the narrators were less than diligent in recording it.

Every one of your quotes is not part of the six major hadith collections.

You quoted Ibn Jarir Tabari's history book. I'm quoting sahih hadith and you're quoting a persian historians history book.

Al-bidayya wal-nihaya is not a reputable source, it's not even part of the hadith collections like al-tabari's works.

Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib biographical notes on the narrators of Hadith reports are not reputable either.

After the Qu'ran, Sahih Buhkari is the most revered book.. second is sahih muslim and third is adbu da'ud. Again, after the Qu'ran, here are the most reputable sources for knowledge and guidance (1)bukhari (2) muslim (3) abu da'ud (4)al-tirmidhi (5) sunan ibn maja

Those are the levels, to reject bukhari's, muslims, and abu da'uds blunt recollection of events (reported more than once) and accept al-tabari's works and others over it, is simply waving a blind eye to the truth and nothing more...

Originally Posted by Leila Night

Yeah, so you basically have one source for all this? Seems fair to me. Anyway, I've never heard any of this and to my knowledge, Aisha did participate in the raid and had subsequently participated in other defensive efforts.

I have two sources of evidence, one in Sahih Muslim and one in Sahih Bukhari. They don't call these books "sahih" for nothing [see bold]

First, the prohibition applied to combatants. It applied neither to non-combatant boys nor to non-combatant girls and women. Second, `A'isha did not participate in Badr at all but bade farewell to the combatants as they were leaving Madina, as narrated by Muslim in his Sahih. On the day of Uhud (year 3), Anas, at the time only twelve or thirteen years old, reports seeing an eleven-year old `A'isha and his mother Umm Sulaym having tied up their dresses and carrying water skins back and forth to the combatants, as narrated by al-Bukhari and Muslim.

Originally Posted by Leila Night

And females are never referred to as girls after this point? I'm sorry, the word 'girl' denotes youth, yes, but nothing more in the conventional sense. 'Girl' is not a scientific term...

Don't be surprised hagar was a young slave girl that slept with an 86 year old Ibraham (pbuh). This was normal in their culture, biblical times are much older than the 7th century, especially during the days Ibraham (pbuh).

These quotes (below) were the norm of islamic days, after biblical times. So judging from the norm, hagar must've been a girl, a young female who was able to bear children, unlike sarah who was much too old to do so at that time and had to resort to sarah as a surrogate mother (until god put his blessings on her to give birth to isaac). No doubt, hagar very well could've been 9-14yrs of age like mary, the wife of middle-aged jospeh and the mother of jesus (pbuh)

- Abu Tughlub ibn Hamdan married the daughter of `Izz al-Dawla Bakhtyar when she was three and paid a dowry of 100,000 dinars. This took place in Safar 360 H. (Ibn al-Athir, al-Kamil).

- Al-Shafi`i in al-Umm reported that he saw countless examples of nine-year old pubescent girls in Yemen. Al-Bayhaqi also narrates it from him in the Sunan al-Kubra as does al-Dhahabi in the Siyar.

- Al-Bayhaqi narrated with his chains in his Sunan al-Kubra no less than three examples of Muslim wives that gave birth at age nine or ten.

- Hisham ibn `Urwa married Fatima bint al-Mundhir when she was nine years old (al-Muntazam and Tarikh Baghdad).

- Our liege-lord `Umar married Umm Kulthum the daughter of `Ali and Fatima at a similar age per `Abd al-Razzaq, Ibn `Abd al-Barr and others.

- And our Mother `Aisha herself was first almost betrothed to Jubayr ibn Mut`im before her father dropped that option when he received word from the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless and greet him and be well-pleased with them.


Judging from the norms of semites at that time, it seems pretty clear to me..