For those that accuse Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) of being a pedophile

[menaz]

Muhammad's a pedophile even according to DSM-IV-TR

Which as you know is the most stringent clinical definition of pedophilia, DSM-IV-TR, Muhammad would be defined as a pedophile. Note that there are other generally accepted definitions of pedophilia that do not confine the definition to prepubertal children or require fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors over a certain period of time. However, for the sake of making my point to you I will confine my argument to DSM-IV-TR.

Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia

1.Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).

2.The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies caused marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.

3.The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.

Does Muhammad meet all these criteria?

1. Yes - Muhammad had sexual relations with a pre-pubescent girl for a prolonged period – likely to be at least 4-6 years.

2. Yes - Muhammad had acted on his sexual urges – as demonstrated by Tabari IX:131 and various Bukhari hadiths stating (consummation at age nine when It has been established that Aisha didn’t reach puberty then nor exactly afterward.)

3. Yes - Muhammad was 53 years old when Aisha was only 9 years old when they first had sex.

Therefore, even according to the strict clinical definition of DSM-IV-TR it can be proven that Muhammad was a pedophile.

Beyond even this though, One can not help but feel sorry for little prepubsent Aisha. After all, She was robbed of her childhood, was a clueless bride to a man who had a large sexual appetite for many women, Aisha even felt she had to at times lie to and deceive Muhammad just to keep his attention. She ends up after her marriage to him, left all alone, forbidden to remarry. Later, she helps lead the first Muslim civil war, causing the death of thousands of Muslims, who according to Islam, would go to hell for fighting each other. Finally defeated, she is not executed but ordered to live the rest of her days, basically under house arrest, in Medina.

Note: you have no conscious or moral compass!!!

In conclusion, Your prophet was infact nothing more than a immoral prepubescent pedophile even for his norm back then, as you refer to it as. See the other thing is according to religion Prophets are suppose to be above the norm of their time on all aspects when it comes to morality. i.e. moral absolutists. This goes for the rest of the religions and their prophets as well. I'm not being bias here. Learn that definition before you apply it. I've treated this subject equally across the board. I'ma multilinear evolutionist, but i'm not politically correct, I relie on facts to draw my conclusions. People like you expect us to bury our heads in the sand as if prophet muhammad wasn't practicing pedophilia even for his norm back then, as you refer to it as. What moral can possibally be learned from this history and applied to todays islamic culture if we excuse it? Nothing moral can be learned by doing that. Therefore, your asking us all to accept this pedophilia even today as a cultural norm. And because of prophet muhammad we still have alot of islamic cultures trying to claim it's normal or their cultural norm. We have learned nothing from history because of apologitists. I do not apologies for the immorality of pedophilia in past norms. Instead I say look what was immorally wrong there and fix it today. I'm trying to get you to fix this twisted aspect in Islam. Love it or hate it I have to live on this earth with religious nut jobs, Alright! You will not be able to fix islam on this pedophilia issue espically if you get into a conversation with a fellow muslim who follows what muhammad did. Because you think what muhammad did was normal. (Though I just proved to the contrary) Therefore you continue to unconsciously justify your fellow muslims sexual intercourse with his child bride as his norm. i.e. Your logic will only agree with his, letting him continue to think pedophilia is a acceptable norm for him. And that is another reason why muhammad can be labeled a PEDOPHILE.

I'm not a christian nor do I care whether jesus was a prophet or son of God, but I want to make a point to you here for islamic childrens sake. Can you find me one quote where "jesus" practiced pedophilia like muhammad did? I'm specifically talking about the words from "jesus" mouth here. I want you to show me where jesus was a by-product of his circumstances like muhammad was when it came to sexual intercourse with prepubescent childern. You will not answer this question. Instead you will ad hom attack me or suggest something completely irrelevent. And then I will direct you to jesus in his own words in Matthew 18:6. Because the logical point I want you to understand here is muhammad a prophet of allah practiced prepubescent pedophilia while jesus a man in muhammads same circumstances did not. You will have to accept then Muhammad was not only not a prophet but also practiced prepubescent pedophilia! My logic is not wrong here even if you bring up your lame argument from rethoic which states I think both were not prophets but instead average men. That does not explain why jesus never practiced pedophilia and why muhammad did. Though jesus should of according to your logic. I've tried to prove jesus practiced prepubescent or even postpubescent pedophilia before and I could not find the evidence. So why was muhammad a prepubescent pedophile when jesus was moral enough to know better than to practice prepubescent pedophilia even before Muhammad's time? This does indeed cast doubt on Muhammad being the moral standard for muslims to follow/emulate.

I rest my case: I've proven Muhammad your prophet was indeed a prepubescent pedophile not only according to "todays scope" but also according to "his scope", as you refer to it as. And I'm not sorry when I say anyone who trys to cover this up is immorally fucked in the head. Because prophet muhammad's pedophilic lust for prepubsent children is/was immorally wrong no matter how one analyzes him.

[reggie_jax]

condense that into 10 words or less and i'll consider reading it

[Thrilla-Ali]

Nothing takes away from the fact it was a norm.. nothing you said at all.. as a matter of fact, your forefathers were pedophiles in that case Menaz..

If you were born in those times, you would be a 'pedophile' too ..

i gave you a hadith that says engaged at 6... plus it's obvious due to the fact she moved into his at nine..

the age of consent may be different for you than to others.. just ask leaders of the west today

The marriage was consummated at 9 and by consummate, it can either mean fornication or completion of the engagement (into marriage) no-one knows.. however, i have no problem with either answer btw

Also he loved his wife Khadija, check source.

Originally Posted by menaz

In conclusion, Your prophet was infact nothing more than a immoral prepubescent pedophile

Already specified she was pubescent when she moved into his house and already debunked your half quoted hadiths, nice try

[The Giant]

lol

Vote=Menaz

[UnbrokeN]

Vote ~ Namaz

[Joro]

go easy on em Menaz

[barnizzle]

menaz just pwned muhammad

[Nu'maaN]

i wish one of you cunts would say this infront of us in real life. i'm aching for that day to come. ali, no point trying to explain to ignorant fools. menaz been doing the same shit for the past 7 yrs of his life ; talking shit ...

...

[reggie_jax]

anyone who watches the news knows better than to insult islam publicly. thats how shit gets blown up

[Thrilla-Ali]

Originally Posted by menaz

Muhammad's a pedophile even according to DSM-IV-TR

Which as you know is the most stringent clinical definition of pedophilia, DSM-IV-TR, Muhammad would be defined as a pedophile. Note that there are other generally accepted definitions of pedophilia that do not confine the definition to prepubertal children or require fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors over a certain period of time. However, for the sake of making my point to you I will confine my argument to DSM-IV-TR.

Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia

1.Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).

2.The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies caused marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.

3.The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.

Does Muhammad meet all these criteria?

1. Yes - Muhammad had sexual relations with a pre-pubescent girl for a prolonged period – likely to be at least 4-6 years.

2. Yes - Muhammad had acted on his sexual urges – as demonstrated by Tabari IX:131 and various Bukhari hadiths stating (consummation at age nine when It has been established that Aisha didn’t reach puberty then nor exactly afterward.)

3. Yes - Muhammad was 53 years old when Aisha was only 9 years old when they first had sex.

Therefore, even according to the strict clinical definition of DSM-IV-TR it can be proven that Muhammad was a pedophile.

Not at all actually. Pedophiles are pedophiles for their whole life, they're not attracted to women their age. The fact that he married a woman not only much older than him (Khadija), and women much older than Aishaas age as well, paints a different picture than the one you're trying to effortlessly create.

And Aisha did obtain Puberty at the age of 9, you're statement is incorrect.

Originally Posted by menaz

Beyond even this though, One can not help but feel sorry for little prepubsent Aisha. After all, She was robbed of her childhood, was a clueless bride to a man who had a large sexual appetite for many women, Aisha even felt she had to at times lie to and deceive Muhammad just to keep his attention. She ends up after her marriage to him, left all alone, forbidden to remarry. Later, she helps lead the first Muslim civil war, causing the death of thousands of Muslims, who according to Islam, would go to hell for fighting each other. Finally defeated, she is not executed but ordered to live the rest of her days, basically under house arrest, in Medina.

Note: you have no conscious or moral compass!!!

She is regarded as the mother of all believers, and she is also an islamic scholar. She was not an unhappy woman, she expressed her love for the prophet (pbuh) on several occasions. You have your own motives and i could easily recognize it .. but for the sake of creating a fresh breath of air and shedding some light here.. i'll continue..

Originally Posted by menaz

In conclusion, Your prophet was infact nothing more than a immoral prepubescent pedophile even for his norm back then, as you refer to it as. See the other thing is according to religion Prophets are suppose to be above the norm of their time on all aspects when it comes to morality. i.e. moral absolutists. This goes for the rest of the religions and their prophets as well. I'm not being bias here. Learn that definition before you apply it. I've treated this subject equally across the board. I'ma multilinear evolutionist, but i'm not politically correct, I relie on facts to draw my conclusions.

I rely on facts to draw my conclusions too. Prophets are also humans and not immortal, all prophets lived and died in different era's of time. As humans, they also participated in activities considered as normal in their own culture(s). As i have stated previously, this norm was not harming the bride, her parents, or anyone else, therefore it was accepted (it's not like slavery or burying infant children alive).. The child had reached puberty and therefore it was permissible for her to marry him according to islamic law. That doesn't mean Islam does not adapt with time either though.. vast majority of muslims get married at an older age now just like the vast majority of chrisitans, jews, buddhists, and hindus..

Originally Posted by menaz

People like you expect us to bury our heads in the sand as if prophet muhammad wasn't practicing pedophilia even for his norm back then, as you refer to it as. What moral can possibally be learned from this history and applied to todays islamic culture if we excuse it? Nothing moral can be learned by doing that. Therefore, your asking us all to accept this pedophilia even today as a cultural norm. And because of prophet muhammad we still have alot of islamic cultures trying to claim it's normal or their cultural norm. We have learned nothing from history because of apologitists. I do not apologies for the immorality of pedophilia in past norms.

I understand moral and cultural norms are two different things. But i personally don't think it was immoral at the time to marry a 9 year old, because it was a universal practice that was interwoven with early human behaviour. Do you think our first human ancestors were 'immoral' because they engaged in incest in order to populate the world? I don't.. It was early human behaviour which didn't harm anyone just like young marriages in 7th century arabia. If i don't have a moral compass according to you, then you don't have any common sense according to me.

[Thrilla-Ali]

Originally Posted by menaz

Instead I say look what was immorally wrong there and fix it today. I'm trying to get you to fix this twisted aspect in Islam. Love it or hate it I have to live on this earth with religious nut jobs, Alright! You will not be able to fix islam on this pedophilia issue espically if you get into a conversation with a fellow muslim who follows what muhammad did. Because you think what muhammad did was normal. (Though I just proved to the contrary) Therefore you continue to unconsciously justify your fellow muslims sexual intercourse with his child bride as his norm. i.e. Your logic will only agree with his, letting him continue to think pedophilia is a acceptable norm for him. And that is another reason why muhammad can be labeled a PEDOPHILE.

It would be pedophilia today in many countries and civilizations in the world but not in the early centuries, because our ancestors were living under much different social conditions and norms. You can't just blend the two time-lines together, i'm afraid it's not that easy. You keep skipping over the fact that Abrahamic faiths adapt to cultural norms, of course a man from our modern age will differ in opinion from a man existing in more primitive times when it comes to morality, therefore this argument would be subjective between primitive societies and modern ones (IE. middle ages verses the Renaissance era). My main thesis here (or point), is TIME - What comes along with time is change.. this is a fact. And fact of the matter is, human beings have changed during the course of time.. i can't say young marriages were immoral back then if it wasn't harming anyone.. i cannot say it was evil/immoral.. i can't judge a biblical/quranic era because i know that if you, me, or anyone else reading this material existed in that era ..we could've all did the same (marry young brides).

Originally Posted by menaz

I'm not a christian nor do I care whether jesus was a prophet or son of God, but I want to make a point to you here for islamic childrens sake. Can you find me one quote where "jesus" practiced pedophilia like muhammad did? I'm specifically talking about the words from "jesus" mouth here. I want you to show me where jesus was a by-product of his circumstances like muhammad was when it came to sexual intercourse with prepubescent childern. You will not answer this question. Instead you will ad hom attack me or suggest something completely irrelevent.

Never that. Jesus pbuh never married first and foremost. However, his mother was about 12-14 years old when she married joseph, i got no problems with this for reasons stated above. Abraham pbuh had fornicated with Hagar, a young maidan girl .. again, biblical times.

Originally Posted by menaz

And then I will direct you to jesus in his own words in Matthew 18:6. Because the logical point I want you to understand here is muhammad a prophet of allah practiced prepubescent pedophilia while jesus a man in muhammads same circumstances did not. You will have to accept then Muhammad was not only not a prophet but also practiced prepubescent pedophilia! My logic is not wrong here even if you bring up your lame argument from rethoic which states I think both were not prophets but instead average men. That does not explain why jesus never practiced pedophilia and why muhammad did. Though jesus should of according to your logic. I've tried to prove jesus practiced prepubescent or even postpubescent pedophilia before and I could not find the evidence. So why was muhammad a prepubescent pedophile when jesus was moral enough to know better than to practice prepubescent pedophilia even before Muhammad's time? This does indeed cast doubt on Muhammad being the moral standard for muslims to follow/emulate.

I'm not sure why you're bringing Jesus pbuh into this mix. Jesus pbuh is not the only prominent figure in the bible anyways, i wouldn't be surprised if both david and his son solomon (pbt) had young girls as concubines and wives.. I've established that Abraham pbuh and Jospeh had fornicated with much younger women, and I'm fine with that because they're gods men who lived in biblical times, which is of course, again, different from our times. .. in the prophets (pbuh)'s time (7th century), young girls did not have objection or discomfort in marrying much older men (they were also allowed to reject the man for wtvr reason), and in this time everyone practiced this norm.. (it was actually universal).. both of my points pertaining to, and interwoven with time itself .. The act itself is moral for that time frame only (early centuries).. whereas it is immoral for our present times. Why? No harm done to anyone, and it was universally accepted as a norm. Whereas now it is harmful and not accepted by either the parents, the child, or society itself..

Originally Posted by menaz

I rest my case: I've proven Muhammad your prophet was indeed a prepubescent pedophile not only according to "todays scope" but also according to "his scope", as you refer to it as. And I'm not sorry when I say anyone who trys to cover this up is immorally fucked in the head. Because prophet muhammad's pedophilic lust for prepubsent children is/was immorally wrong no matter how one analyzes him.

I've rested my case too.. The same argument you're trying to bring towards me now is all over the internet. "morality is not the same as cultural norms".. what peeves me off is that you just have to google your rebuttals, while my rebuttals come straight from my dome man... and that's wack. My rebuttal to that ^ (in italics) is they are not the same, but that doesn't mean they don't have anything to do with one another. Back then there was no harm committed in marrying off your daughter at that age and maturity, while today it would be harmful. For this reason (harm), the prophet pbuh provided many ways to gradually abolish slavery, for example.. because slavery = harm. The reason why young marriages (after puberty) was not outlawed is because it was not harmful to anyone at the time, because it was a cultural norm. Plus his marriage to Aisha was to solidify his relationship with his best friend Abu Bakr (aisha's father), an old arab custom. So there's two reasons why it was okay.. society approved of this (1) and the parents and young females approval for the marriage was needed (2).. so those two reasons are fine enough for me. Again, moral for those times.. immoral for our modern day.. religion adapts with time and culture .. Nine year old females who went through puberty during the 7th century did not go through any psychological trauma being married to much older men, but it would be a different story today.. arguments done.

[Riz]

I miss Menaz.

[apache66]

The question of whether Mohammad was a pedophile or not, shouldn't even be up for debate. I loved how it was put here...work of art.

http://the-atheist-perspective.*****...e-prophet.html