Does lack of relgious hold on a society=progress?

Brit Boi Gee · 01-25-2007, 11:15 PM

I.e. first we believe in the supernatural, which is a primitive belief, a naieve reaching to something else bigger than us which we cannot understand.
Then the next stage of society (like western society as we speak) develops and we see the decline and the diversity of relgion and belief, and increasing secularism. So do you think this is progressive and teleological? If it is, we could see the western clash with the middle east andwith religious fundamentalism as a more primitive society clashing with a society (The west) that has had the means to evolve beyond it.

Beyond, is such a judgemental word. But Auguste Comte beleived society went through certain stages until it reached a rational state.

UnbrokeN · 01-26-2007, 04:31 AM

no. with the decline in religious and moral values, comes a decline in traditional and family values, which results in the existing decline of marriages and marriages that actually last, and children. people losing their faith in god or never even aquiring it, is by all means a very negative developement. people just become more and more hopeless, depressed, criminal, relentless, lewd, etc etc...soddom and gomorra.should always try t live your life by the important christian values..thats half of the victory. dont even have to go to church..peopel just need to read the bible for example, and understand. but most dont understand

Amitabha · 01-26-2007, 05:10 AM

Secularism increases only when culture is lost.

Why do you think faith in the supernatural (that which cannot be observed through the senses) is naive?

menaz · 01-26-2007, 06:35 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVRtD1i4WQE

This man is very important to my cause.

Ignorant · 01-26-2007, 11:14 AM

What is "progress?"

Amitabha · 01-26-2007, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by menaz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVRtD1i4WQE

This man is very important to my cause.

What is your cause?

Ratiko Malodic · 01-26-2007, 06:35 PM

Secularisation is a plus in my eyes. It's hard to argue that we are heading that way at the exspense of 'norms and values' given the grim past every religion has behind it.

Amitabha · 01-26-2007, 07:32 PM

Menaz - Click this video and listen to him talk at 17:10. He quotes Jesus (note that this is the ONLY time he stutters throughout the entire speech). He doesn't misquote Jesus. He flat out lies. He claims that in Chapter 19 of Luke Jesus says to slaughter people who do not want Jesus to reign over them. This is a lie. Chapter 19 says nothing even close to this. In fact, Chapter 19 of Luke states that Jesus wept when entering Jerusalem because he could forsee the destruction that would follow. This man is a liar. His mouth speaks of peace and understanding and truth and honesty . . but he is dishonest and his eyes are not peaceful. I don't presume to know what your "cause" is. But be weary of this man. This is not a good man.

Nowhere in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John does Jesus say to kill any man or woman for any reason whatsoever.

Here's the video (17:10)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3YOI...related&search=

Amitabha · 01-26-2007, 08:32 PM

Here is a video of Sam Harris getting owned by Steven Greer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbwBqn3esy8

If you're wondering who Steven Greer is.
He is the head of the Disclosure Project.
There's plenty of videos on youtube that you can watch.

menaz · 01-27-2007, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amitabha

Menaz - Click this video and listen to him talk at 17:10. He quotes Jesus (note that this is the ONLY time he stutters throughout the entire speech). He doesn't misquote Jesus. He flat out lies. He claims that in Chapter 19 of Luke Jesus says to slaughter people who do not want Jesus to reign over them. This is a lie. Chapter 19 says nothing even close to this. In fact, Chapter 19 of Luke states that Jesus wept when entering Jerusalem because he could forsee the destruction that would follow. This man is a liar. His mouth speaks of peace and understanding and truth and honesty . . but he is dishonest and his eyes are not peaceful. I don't presume to know what your "cause" is. But be weary of this man. This is not a good man.

Nowhere in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John does Jesus say to kill any man or woman for any reason whatsoever.

Here's the video (17:10)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3YOI...related&search=

Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and "slay" [them] before me. KJV!

you're the fucking Creationist LAIR!

You people always take it right back to the scripture as if the scripture means anything anyway. Funny thing is your lying scripture proved you a liar. The Newtestament scripture is not only mythological, astrological, it's dogmatic, and pseudepigraphic. Which means, it doesn't have two legs to stand on. The Newtestament has been reformed many times over the ages, There is literally hundreds of forms of christianity. There's even said to be TEXT which wasn't added into the newtestament because it spoke on the nature of Jesus being a child predator, Boys were jesus cup of tea evidently.

Speaking of Jesus, He never existed.
Jesus is a Greek astrological God allegored from horus.
Which ironically reverts back to the egyptian god horus.
The whole bearing the cross thing, another allegory from greek Astrology.
christians are Idolaters who wagger out of ignorance and fear of the unknown.

Lastly, Harris was not defeated by that moron who could barely speak. LOL!He didn't even give his opinion on reincarnation. He didn't even give his opinion on the paranormal either, He's basically observing the paranormal research with an open mind. And another thing, buddhism isn't a harmful dogma, Harris has always been against harmful dogmas. Meaning, He's against the religions that promote harmful dogmas. To him, If the buddhist get out of line their dogmas will have to go as well.

I would say harris completely shat on the Stem cell research debate as well.

You made a fool of yourself.

Amitabha · 01-27-2007, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by menaz

Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and "slay" [them] before me. KJV!

Now read from 19:11-27
It's a parable about a King.

Wow, way to take something COMPLETELY out of context.
hahaha

Quote:

you're the fucking Creationist LAIR!

Actually I'm not. I don't believe there was ever a beginning to the Greater Universe. I believe that it has always been and will always be, with realms, universes, galaxies, etc being born and dying within it. And I also do not believe in a creator father figure God. I believe in an Ultimate Force that is within everything that is, was and ever will be. But I do not believe in the creation story.

Quote:

You people always take it right back to the scripture as if the scripture means anything anyway.

He misquoted scripture. He took one line out of a parable and claimed Jesus was teaching it by itself, which is clearly nonsense to anybody with a 5th grade reading level or higher. Jesus was teaching them a lesson by telling them a story.

It had nothing to do with Jesus saying for his disciples to do it.

Quote:

Funny thing is your lying scripture proved you a liar. The Newtestament scripture is not only mythological, astrological, it's dogmatic, and pseudepigraphic. Which means, it doesn't have two legs to stand on. The Newtestament has been reformed many times over the ages, There is literally hundreds of forms of christianity. There's even said to be TEXT which wasn't added into the newtestament because it spoke on the nature of Jesus being a child predator, Boys were jesus cup of tea evidently.

The guy is a moron. He completely distorted that for his own use. If what you say about the New Testament is true (and I'm not going down that road with you because ultimately I don't care) that still does not change the fact that your hero can't read. If the Bible has been distorted then to quote Jesus from the Bible in order to accuse him is also a waste of time because Christians could have added whatever they wanted to make him promote violence (which of course they didn't because Jesus didn't promote violence of any kind). So either way your hero fails miserably. Find a new role model.

And L CAPITAL O CAPITAL L @ Jesus being a child predator. What book claims that? I'm going to have to ask you for evidence of that one because personally I don't think any book dating that far back would claim that.

Quote:

Speaking of Jesus, He never existed.
Jesus is a Greek astrological God allegored from horus.
Which ironically reverts back to the egyptian god horus.
The whole bearing the cross thing, another allegory from greek Astrology.
christians are Idolaters who wagger out of ignorance and fear of the unknown.

Yes, I know. I remember telling you that numerous times in the past and then arguing it with you for entertainment value when you started preaching it.

Quote:

Lastly, Harris was not defeated by that moron who could barely speak. LOL!

Funny how we see what we want to see. That man is far from a moron. He is a well respected scientist, has offices in D.C. and works with over 400 of the top ranking retired officers from numerous top government organizations. And yes, he was defeated by him. You obviously weren't listening and was too wrapped up in the fact that he's not a great speaker.

Quote:

He didn't even give his opinion on reincarnation. He didn't even give his opinion on the paranormal either, He's basically observing the paranormal research with an open mind. And another thing, buddhism isn't a harmful dogma, Harris has always been against harmful dogmas. Meaning, He's against the religions that promote harmful dogmas. To him, If the buddhist get out of line their dogmas will have to go as well.

Out of line? Who decides where the line is drawn?

Quote:

I would say harris completely shat on the Stem cell research debate as well.

Of course you would. You like what he has to say.

Quote:

You made a fool of yourself.

How exactly did I do that? Harris was too stupid to realize that the line he quoted was the "ending" of a parable that Jesus was teaching and you were silly enough to miss it also. Yet I made a fool of myself? Next time you promote somebody, be sure you know everything there is to know about them. The guy is a joke. You lack the bigger picture. He emerged "after" September 11th. He's a reaction to an action and nothing more. He's just tryin to make a little money off what is happening. He has no solutions of any type. Just complaints about religion, attacks on beliefs and he's angry because he wants stem cell research. That sums up everything this guy about. That's not much.

Let me ask you something. If Jesus didn't exist, then why misquote Jesus to disprove his authority? You lose credibility when you misquote the man because later when you say, "Ah, he didn't really exist," another can just ask, "Then why did you misquote him?"

If you are going to attack, make sure that you're not attacking a mirage. A fool leads his army into combat with a hologram. It does no good trying to "discredit" a man that didn't really exist. You only end up discrediting yourself when another proves that he didn't exist. Nothing like goin down with the ship that you failed to sink.

identity-X · 01-27-2007, 06:17 PM

menaz spankage...woot!

like Ignorant said...define "progress"

Unbroken - decline in religioun would not necessarily have to coincide with a decline in "traditional" values and/or morality

Brit Boi Gee · 01-27-2007, 08:07 PM

Define carton of milk.

Progress as in not going backwards from secularisation to wide spread belief in idols, religious fundamentalism etc.

Auguste Comte claimed that human efforts to understand the world have passed through theological, metaphysical and positivist stages.

Theological Stage= thoughts are guided by religious ideas and the belief that society was an expression of God's Will.

The metaphysical Stage= Society such as around the time of the renaissance comes to be seen as natural and not supernatural.

The Positive Stage=encouraged application of scientific techniques

If we take this layout of stages of society...The middle east is still at the first stage, and we are at the the third (not saying it is the last) but never theless we can see it as 'progress' in that sense.

McGirth · 01-27-2007, 09:12 PM

^ that seems rather circular. Oh also i think the Rennaisance is really the pinnacle of the west in the same way Rome is ultimately inferior to Athens. The society that carries out the vision is not as great as those who conceive it.

I think as secularism rises 2 things occur:
1)New problems are created by the void left by the fall of the old order
2)New solutions are created to deal with these problems

I think the danger is, and i agree wholehardly with Nietzsche on this, that we've killed God but we haven't replaced him without any viable alternative. God is literally the linchpin of many many things in our society, from legitimate government, to sanity, to science. The result is a bunch of problems created by killing God with a bunch of half assed solutions that put us into a worse position then when God was alive. Making our society weaker.

This invariably results in Ressurection, as a result of both:
1)malaise, from people living with partilar solutions that don't really work
2)neccesity, since the new secular order is unable to sustain itself across multiple generations

Religion returns as the core of society.
This can either be a move BACK to fundamentalism/backwards way of thinking OR a new Renaissance.

If you look at the 2 modern dystopia novels, Brave New World and 1984, they present two new solutions to the death of God problem. (hellish imho) These solutions are more thourough and more likely to survive than what we have now. Yet, we haven't even reached the level of either solution and likely neither will. Further, either of these solutions is still only partial and arguably would not suffice in the long run.
Yet, the seculars continue to move us towards these two orders, consciously or not. I would say the current "conservatives" tend to be moving towards 1984 and abhor the thought of Brave New World; liberals seem to be pushing for Brave New World and abhor 1984.

I think both will fail and Ressurection will result (or Renaissance), but before it i think there will be alot of chaos and unnecesary destruction. The Frescos by Lucas Signorelli Michalangelo looked to for inspiration show this cycle blissfully.

I think the job left for our generation is to ensure that we don't fall into Fundamentalism, and that we don't stay the course towards the untenable secularism; and instead position ourselves towards Renaissance.

teq the decider · 01-28-2007, 07:47 AM

1. If you define progress as a lack of religious hold on society then the question is mere tautology

2. When I survery the course of human history available to us what I see is change rather than progress and that change being of means rather than ends. We are hostages to our biology to a far greater extent than most peoples ego will credit.

3. Religion is firstly a product not a cause. If it is diminishing it is because men haves happened across newer methods to perform the function it originally fulfilled. Whether this will be good or bad remains to be seen. The track record of explicitly irreligious societies is, to this point, not very good.

menaz · 01-28-2007, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Now read from 19:11-27
It's a parable about a King.

I love how creationist change the subject. The fact is you claimed Luk 19:27 wasn't even in the new testament. You claimed harris was lying. He wasn't lying. You were lying. Nothing I hate more than a loud mouth lying christian who ingorantly continues to justify his zealous stupidity. You are the reason why religion should die.

Who tells a parable? any of the stories told by Jesus to convey his religious message.

All Harris said was jesus spoke: Luk 19:27. Which harris didn't lie about.

Nice try.

Quote:

Wow, way to take something COMPLETELY out of context.
hahaha

Everything in the bible is taken out of context. That is the problem with christians and the bible. And no I didn't take anything out of context. You claimed it didn't even exist. LOL! Harris however knew the dirty little lie you were trying to conseal.

Quote:

Actually I'm not. I don't believe there was ever a beginning to the Greater Universe. I believe that it has always been and will always be, with realms, universes, galaxies, etc being born and dying within it. And I also do not believe in a creator father figure God. I believe in an Ultimate Force that is within everything that is, was and ever will be. But I do not believe in the creation story

.

You seem familiar.. WINK!

you are a creationist. Anyone who believes in anything similar to god
or a Force like god (wink wink) is a creationist. Stop using semantics to justify your nonexisting god. Without the bible you couldn't base your dogmatic rethoric on anything. Therefore, Stop making false comparsions to justify your god. God is not a force because the bible says so. God is not a spirt because the bible says so. You surround yourself in false hope based on unfactual evidence.

Quote:

He misquoted scripture. He took one line out of a parable and claimed Jesus was teaching it by itself, which is clearly nonsense to anybody with a 5th grade reading level or higher. Jesus was teaching them a lesson by telling them a story.

It had nothing to do with Jesus saying for his disciples to do it.

Why do you care if he misquoted scripture if you don't follow the scripture?
Or pratice the scripture? Hypocrite! Wait I know why, because your a shill whose really a creationist looking to prove your sworn enemy the atheist a fool.

You're first tactic was to straight out lie. Your next tactic was to change the subject. and now your tactic is to put words in anothers mouth.

To funny. And no he didn't. All harris said was jesus spoke and taught that.Which according to luke, jesus did. He didn't misquote that verse from Luke. Misquoting would be harris getting that line jesus spoke all wrong. Harris however quoted that piece of dogma word for word.

01-25-2007, 11:15 PM	#1 (permalink)
Brit Boi Gee manifest the zen Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Near To Athena Posts: 15,870	Does lack of relgious hold on a society=progress? I.e. first we believe in the supernatural, which is a primitive belief, a naieve reaching to something else bigger than us which we cannot understand. Then the next stage of society (like western society as we speak) develops and we see the decline and the diversity of relgion and belief, and increasing secularism. So do you think this is progressive and teleological? If it is, we could see the western clash with the middle east andwith religious fundamentalism as a more primitive society clashing with a society (The west) that has had the means to evolve beyond it. Beyond, is such a judgemental word. But Auguste Comte beleived society went through certain stages until it reached a rational state. __________________ childhood, when nothing happened to us except what happens to things and creatures: we lived their world as something human, and became filled to the brim with figures. -Rainer Maria Rilke Brit Boi has a highly calibrated wifermometer

01-26-2007, 04:31 AM	#2 (permalink)
UnbrokeN Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Badstreet, USA Posts: 17,046	no. with the decline in religious and moral values, comes a decline in traditional and family values, which results in the existing decline of marriages and marriages that actually last, and children. people losing their faith in god or never even aquiring it, is by all means a very negative developement. people just become more and more hopeless, depressed, criminal, relentless, lewd, etc etc...soddom and gomorra.should always try t live your life by the important christian values..thats half of the victory. dont even have to go to church..peopel just need to read the bible for example, and understand. but most dont understand __________________ lol.. the day Hogan dies, he'll just say "No, I won't lay down for you,brother"!!! he will become the only man in history to actually no sell death.

01-26-2007, 06:35 AM	#4 (permalink)
menaz Nomenklatura демокр Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: ST.Louis, Mo. Posts: 16,802	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVRtD1i4WQE This man is very important to my cause. __________________ "Spending for the common good" is not equitable to "spreading the wealth." Taxation for spending for the common good is paying a fee for services rendered. For example, I pay a tax and I get military/police/fire protection, infrastructure improvements, and mail services. Taxation for spreading the wealth is paying a fee for no services rendered. For example, I pay a tax and it goes in the form of a check to someone who pays no taxes.-menaz The Communist Manifesto's second plank is, "A heavy progressive or graduated income tax."-Marx & Engles http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3357 January 20th, 2009. A date which will live in infamy. Last edited by menaz; 01-26-2007 at 06:37 AM.

01-26-2007, 11:14 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ignorant Village Idiot Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: edge of sanity Posts: 9,625	What is "progress?" __________________ "It would be better not to know so many things, than to know so many things that are not so." - Felix Okoye "The learning and knowledge that we have is at the most, but little compared with that of which we are ignorant." - Plato "How can we remember our ignorance, which our growth requires, when we're using our knowledge all the time?" - Henry David Thoreau

01-26-2007, 06:35 PM	#7 (permalink)
Ratiko Malodic Hispanic Bitchm0nkey Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Wales Posts: 35,972	Secularisation is a plus in my eyes. It's hard to argue that we are heading that way at the exspense of 'norms and values' given the grim past every religion has behind it. __________________ fuck it

01-26-2007, 05:10 AM	#3 (permalink)
Amitabha Temet Nosce Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 83	Secularism increases only when culture is lost. Why do you think faith in the supernatural (that which cannot be observed through the senses) is naive?

01-26-2007, 07:32 PM	#8 (permalink)
Amitabha Temet Nosce Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 83	Menaz - Click this video and listen to him talk at 17:10. He quotes Jesus (note that this is the ONLY time he stutters throughout the entire speech). He doesn't misquote Jesus. He flat out lies. He claims that in Chapter 19 of Luke Jesus says to slaughter people who do not want Jesus to reign over them. This is a lie. Chapter 19 says nothing even close to this. In fact, Chapter 19 of Luke states that Jesus wept when entering Jerusalem because he could forsee the destruction that would follow. This man is a liar. His mouth speaks of peace and understanding and truth and honesty . . but he is dishonest and his eyes are not peaceful. I don't presume to know what your "cause" is. But be weary of this man. This is not a good man. Nowhere in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John does Jesus say to kill any man or woman for any reason whatsoever. Here's the video (17:10) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3YOI...related&search= __________________ "Shall I ask wealth or power of God, who gave An image of himself to be my soul? As well might swilling ocean ask a wave, Or the starred firmament a dying coal, For that which is in me lives in the whole." - Ralph Waldo Emerson Last edited by Amitabha; 01-26-2007 at 07:33 PM.

01-26-2007, 08:32 PM	#9 (permalink)
Amitabha Temet Nosce Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 83	Here is a video of Sam Harris getting owned by Steven Greer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbwBqn3esy8 If you're wondering who Steven Greer is. He is the head of the Disclosure Project. There's plenty of videos on youtube that you can watch. __________________ "Shall I ask wealth or power of God, who gave An image of himself to be my soul? As well might swilling ocean ask a wave, Or the starred firmament a dying coal, For that which is in me lives in the whole." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

01-27-2007, 06:17 PM	#12 (permalink)
identity-X No Talent Assclown Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: over the rainbow Posts: 13,096	menaz spankage...woot! like Ignorant said...define "progress" Unbroken - decline in religioun would not necessarily have to coincide with a decline in "traditional" values and/or morality __________________ Check out reviews (or provide your own!) of the latest and greatest albums hip hop albums in the... USER REVIEWS FORUM

01-27-2007, 08:07 PM	#13 (permalink)
Brit Boi Gee manifest the zen Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Near To Athena Posts: 15,870	Define carton of milk. Progress as in not going backwards from secularisation to wide spread belief in idols, religious fundamentalism etc. Auguste Comte claimed that human efforts to understand the world have passed through theological, metaphysical and positivist stages. Theological Stage= thoughts are guided by religious ideas and the belief that society was an expression of God's Will. The metaphysical Stage= Society such as around the time of the renaissance comes to be seen as natural and not supernatural. The Positive Stage=encouraged application of scientific techniques If we take this layout of stages of society...The middle east is still at the first stage, and we are at the the third (not saying it is the last) but never theless we can see it as 'progress' in that sense. __________________ childhood, when nothing happened to us except what happens to things and creatures: we lived their world as something human, and became filled to the brim with figures. -Rainer Maria Rilke Brit Boi has a highly calibrated wifermometer Last edited by Brit Boi Gee; 01-27-2007 at 08:11 PM.

01-27-2007, 09:12 PM	#14 (permalink)
McGirth Registered User Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 4,883	^ that seems rather circular. Oh also i think the Rennaisance is really the pinnacle of the west in the same way Rome is ultimately inferior to Athens. The society that carries out the vision is not as great as those who conceive it. I think as secularism rises 2 things occur: 1)New problems are created by the void left by the fall of the old order 2)New solutions are created to deal with these problems I think the danger is, and i agree wholehardly with Nietzsche on this, that we've killed God but we haven't replaced him without any viable alternative. God is literally the linchpin of many many things in our society, from legitimate government, to sanity, to science. The result is a bunch of problems created by killing God with a bunch of half assed solutions that put us into a worse position then when God was alive. Making our society weaker. This invariably results in Ressurection, as a result of both: 1)malaise, from people living with partilar solutions that don't really work 2)neccesity, since the new secular order is unable to sustain itself across multiple generations Religion returns as the core of society. This can either be a move BACK to fundamentalism/backwards way of thinking OR a new Renaissance. If you look at the 2 modern dystopia novels, Brave New World and 1984, they present two new solutions to the death of God problem. (hellish imho) These solutions are more thourough and more likely to survive than what we have now. Yet, we haven't even reached the level of either solution and likely neither will. Further, either of these solutions is still only partial and arguably would not suffice in the long run. Yet, the seculars continue to move us towards these two orders, consciously or not. I would say the current "conservatives" tend to be moving towards 1984 and abhor the thought of Brave New World; liberals seem to be pushing for Brave New World and abhor 1984. I think both will fail and Ressurection will result (or Renaissance), but before it i think there will be alot of chaos and unnecesary destruction. The Frescos by Lucas Signorelli Michalangelo looked to for inspiration show this cycle blissfully. I think the job left for our generation is to ensure that we don't fall into Fundamentalism, and that we don't stay the course towards the untenable secularism; and instead position ourselves towards Renaissance.

01-28-2007, 07:47 AM	#15 (permalink)
teq the decider sexual predator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 670	1. If you define progress as a lack of religious hold on society then the question is mere tautology 2. When I survery the course of human history available to us what I see is change rather than progress and that change being of means rather than ends. We are hostages to our biology to a far greater extent than most peoples ego will credit. 3. Religion is firstly a product not a cause. If it is diminishing it is because men haves happened across newer methods to perform the function it originally fulfilled. Whether this will be good or bad remains to be seen. The track record of explicitly irreligious societies is, to this point, not very good. __________________ When I first met my girl she wasnt too keen on fulfilling what is considered the traditional gender role. Now she knows her way around the kitchen like the back of my hand.