The Universal Delusion

[Anidawehi]

Truth is an abstract term which refers to facts. Facts depend upon a stability in what is real. This stability must be observed for it to be a fact. But observations depend upon perception. What I observe as true through perception another person may also observe as true and thus it becomes a proven fact when everybody can observe it, at will. But, if that which we are observing changes form (and all things eventually do) then it is not a fact. Our mind has simply made it real and true for us at this moment. It is not stable and it is only real temporarily and therefore is meaningless. Everything is constantly changing and in a constant motion. What is real today, will not be real tomorrow. What is true at this moment about our Universe will not be true trillions of years into the future.The only true reality is that nothing is stable or eternally true, therefore there is no such thing as truth or fact or reality.

Our entire existence is meaningless. All arguments and discussions are based off of the concept of meaning and purpose. There is no purpose or meaning that we know of and if we discover a meaning or a purpose it will not hold eternally true, therefore it is nothing more than a delusion. Existence is a Universal Delusion.

We are all part of a totality that takes on many forms in some sort of eternal dance which has no purpose or meaning to it whatsoever. The dance will go on and we will play our part over and over again. The matter which is our body will take on different forms and the energy which is within us will as well.

Nothing we accomplish matters.
Our failures and successes mean absolutely nothing.
Everything we fight and die for is worthless and nothing . . . absolutely nothing will remain in tact.

The Universal Delusion is that we have control over anything.
We control nothing. The key to true freedom is simply to let go.

[Sodium]

Originally Posted by Anidawehi

Truth is an abstract term which refers to facts. Facts depend upon a stability in what is real. This stability must be observed for it to be a fact. But observations depend upon perception. What I observe as true through perception another person may also observe as true and thus it becomes a proven fact when everybody can observe it, at will. But, if that which we are observing changes form (and all things eventually do) then it is not a fact. Our mind has simply made it real and true for us at this moment.

in philosophy this line of thinking that things are only true within particular contexts is called contextualism. i think your observation that because people arent aware of all things at all times (this being the ultimate context: that of objectivity) is true. therefore humans cannot claim to know facts (objective truths) as they are not all knowing at all times. this, however, is not to say that there are no objective truths! simply that we, as humans, cant be sure we know them. so your conclusion that " [reality] is not stable and it is only real temporarily and therefore is meaningless" is not necessarily true since it doesnt disprove objective truths.


no matter the evidence to it, objective truths still must require some leap of faith to believe in. but this is very hard for some people to do. its been my finding that the stances for relativity or nihilism are ultimately products of very controlling people since, at its core, these stances represent an assured beleif in no truth rather than a leap of faith for truth. to make the leap of faith towards truth requires that one admits he ultimately doesnt know, but at least hopes there is a truth after all. when confroted with the choice for an assured no-truth or an unknown perhaps-truth, the controlling soul would choose assured no-truth rather than something that requires hope; a true acceptance of one's own ignorance. to hope or not to hope, this philsophical dicussion has boiled down to optimism or pessimism.


all of us must choose eventually and the choices we make in regrds to this affect us greatly. for those who make the optimistic leap of faith twards truth their reality is given purpose and meaning which in turn grants them with purpose and meaning as well. for people who take the pessimistic denial of truth there is no up or down in thier worlds, a sad consequence of their ways. thus, to them, "existence is a univeral delusion"; a harsh punishment indeed. you can even see this process occur vividly in your post which illustrates how you accept the premise of no truth which then rapidly spirals into a nihilistic rejection of purpose and meaning alltogether. this is a tree with no fruit.

Originally Posted by Anidawehi

Everything is constantly changing and in a constant motion. What is real today, will not be real tomorrow. What is true at this moment about our Universe will not be true trillions of years into the future.The only true reality is that nothing is stable or eternally true, therefore there is no such thing as truth or fact or reality.

Our entire existence is meaningless. All arguments and discussions are based off of the concept of meaning and purpose. There is no purpose or meaning that we know of and if we discover a meaning or a purpose it will not hold eternally true, therefore it is nothing more than a delusion. Existence is a Universal Delusion.

We are all part of a totality that takes on many forms in some sort of eternal dance which has no purpose or meaning to it whatsoever. The dance will go on and we will play our part over and over again. The matter which is our body will take on different forms and the energy which is within us will as well.

Nothing we accomplish matters.
Our failures and successes mean absolutely nothing.
Everything we fight and die for is worthless and nothing . . . absolutely nothing will remain in tact.

The Universal Delusion is that we have control over anything.
We control nothing. The key to true freedom is simply to let go.

[Anidawehi]

Originally Posted by Sodium

in philosophy this line of thinking that things are only true within particular contexts is called contextualism. i think your observation that because people arent aware of all things at all times (this being the ultimate context: that of objectivity) is true. therefore humans cannot claim to know facts (objective truths) as they are not all knowing at all times. this, however, is not to say that there are no objective truths! simply that we, as humans, cant know them. so your conclusion that " [reality] is not stable and it is only real temporarily and therefore is meaningless" is not necessarily true since it doesnt disprove objective truths.


no matter the evidence to it, objective truths still must require some leap of faith to believe in. but this is very hard for some people to do. its been my finding that the stances for relativity or nihilism are ultimately products of very controlling people since, at its core, these stances represent an assured beleif in no truth rather than a leap of faith for truth. to make the leap of faith towards truth requires that one admits he ultimately doesnt know, but at least hopes there is a truth after all. when confroted with the choice for an assured no-truth or an unknown perhaps-truth, the controlling soul would choose assured no-truth rather than something that requires hope; a true acceptance of one's own ignorance. to hope or not to hope, this philsophical dicussion has boiled down to optimism or pessimism.


all of us must choose eventually and the choices we make in regrds to this affect us greatly. for those who make the optimistic leap of faith twards truth their reality is given purpose and meaning which in turn grants them with purpose and meaning as well. for people who take the pessimistic denial of truth there is no up or down in thier worlds, a sad consequence of their ways. thus, to them, "existence is a univeral delusion"; a harsh punishment indeed. you can even see this process occur in yourself through your post which illustrates how you first accept the premise of no truth which in turn utimately spirals into nihilistic rejection as a result.

I do appreciate your thought out response. It is a nice deviation from the RM norm. I did not make the point, you did. I presented the pattern in my statement and the point was made within you by using that pattern. This is definately a much better approach to interacting with other people.

The point was not that we should not strive for meaning. It was that the meaning is within us. Faith without evidence is necessary because without faith there is no living to life. Evidence is nonsense. However, awareness of this truth (meaning comes through faith) is the only truth that man can have. Without meaning we cannot exist as a fully functional human being. It is the irony of life. All meaning is within us and is constantly changing, therefore nothing has any true/eternal meaning or purpose. Life is both meaningful and meaningless at the same time.

The dualities are within us. The Universe is not divided. We are.

[Anidawehi]

Science basically ends in God and we end up where we started.

[McGirth]

Heraclitus: "you cannot step into the same river twice"

Your post reflects Heraclitus statement. However, as Sodium points out your conclusions do not follow.

Keep in mind that the river is composed of water. Even though the river constantly changes and has no form, it does not mean that there is no water.

Although facts are not the objective truth - they are apart of it as water forms the river, even though it may have no set form.

In any assessment of truth, "facts" which, as Sodium and you point out is temporary and ultimately based on a leap of faith - must still be taken into account in assessing the truth of things.

The fact that facts are not entirely real does not give one creative license to invent reality and discard all the facts. As Sodium put it, to develop a nihilistic/relativist position on everything either directly or implied by one's creative license. You cannot ignore the water simply because it has no set form - or you risk drowning in it. Death awaits those who ignore facts.

This flows to the very core of the principles upon which real science is founded.

[Sodium]

Originally Posted by Anidawehi

I do appreciate your thought out response. It is a nice deviation from the RM norm. I did not make the point, you did. I presented the pattern in my statement and the point was made within you by using that pattern. This is definately a much better approach to interacting with other people.

The point was not that we should not strive for meaning. It was that the meaning is within us. Faith without evidence is necessary because without faith there is no living to life. Evidence is nonsense. However, awareness of this truth (meaning comes through faith) is the only truth that man can have. Without meaning we cannot exist as a fully functional human being. It is the irony of life. All meaning is within us and is constantly changing, therefore nothing has any true/eternal meaning or purpose. Life is both meaningful and meaningless at the same time.

The dualities are within us. The Universe is not divided. We are.

what???

[Anidawehi]

Originally Posted by McGirth

Heraclitus: "you cannot step into the same river twice"

Your post reflects Heraclitus statement. However, as Sodium points out your conclusions do not follow.

Keep in mind that the river is composed of water. Even though the river constantly changes and has no form, it does not mean that there is no water.

Although facts are not the objective truth - they are apart of it as water forms the river, even though it may have no set form.

In any assessment of truth, "facts" which, as Sodium and you point out is temporary and ultimately based on a leap of faith - must still be taken into account in assessing the truth of things.

The fact that facts are not entirely real does not give one creative license to invent reality and discard all the facts. As Sodium put it, to develop a nihilistic/relativist position on everything either directly or implied by one's creative license. You cannot ignore the water simply because it has no set form - or you risk drowning in it. Death awaits those who ignore facts.

This flows to the very core of the principles upon which real science is founded.

It is entertaining when people try to come across as an intellectual only to crash and burn.

I'm not even going to respond to what you said beyond that because we're not on different pages, you're in the wrong book.

Originally Posted by Sodium

what???

Yes, that is ultimately where we end up.

[Edmund Kemper]

Originally Posted by Anidawehi

It is entertaining when people try to come across as an intellectual only to crash and burn.

oh the irony.

[Anidawehi]

Originally Posted by Edmund Kemper

oh the irony.

Another alias?

[Riz]

Originally Posted by Anidawehi

Our entire existence is meaningless. All arguments and discussions are based off of the concept of meaning and purpose. There is no purpose or meaning that we know of and if we discover a meaning or a purpose it will not hold eternally true, therefore it is nothing more than a delusion. Existence is a Universal Delusion.

How is something eternal any more meaningful than something that lasts for a nano-second? That's only a truth you've constructed for yourself based on your perception of your experiences.

Originally Posted by Anidawehi

Nothing we accomplish matters.
Our failures and successes mean absolutely nothing.
Everything we fight and die for is worthless and nothing . . . absolutely nothing will remain in tact.

So we'd better make it count while it lasts. I'd rather go out in a meaningless fight than an equally meaningless whimper.

Originally Posted by Anidawehi

We control nothing. The key to true freedom is simply to let go.

Freedom is choice, and we alone have the choice to imbue anything with meaning. Let me give you the example I always give:

The function of a gun is to shoot bullets. The purpose of a gun is entirely up the owner. It could be for protection. It could be for offence. It could be to conform socially. It could be to go hunting with. It could be for peace of mind, or it could be for a million other things. And a human life is the same. Our function is to pass on our genes, in some kind of cosmic dance as you say, and nothing else. That's literally the only thing our bodies and minds are created for. And yet we do have a mind, and with that we have the choice to give our lives meaning.

There may not be some grand, cosmic meaning to existance, but there is always the possibility for personal meaning and purpose in each individual. And it seems to me that that's all that matters.

[Anidawehi]

Originally Posted by Riz

How is something eternal any more meaningful than something that lasts for a nano-second? That's only a truth you've constructed for yourself based on your perception of your experiences.



So we'd better make it count while it lasts. I'd rather go out in a meaningless fight than an equally meaningless whimper.



Freedom is choice, and we alone have the choice to imbue anything with meaning. Let me give you the example I always give:

The function of a gun is to shoot bullets. The purpose of a gun is entirely up the owner. It could be for protection. It could be for offence. It could be to conform socially. It could be to go hunting with. It could be for peace of mind, or it could be for a million other things. And a human life is the same. Our function is to pass on our genes, in some kind of cosmic dance as you say, and nothing else. That's literally the only thing our bodies and minds are created for. And yet we do have a mind, and with that we have the choice to give our lives meaning.

There may not be some grand, cosmic meaning to existance, but there is always the possibility for personal meaning and purpose in each individual. And it seems to me that that's all that matters.

You haven't read my second post in this thread, have you?
You are saying what I already said . . . only you're saying it with a completely different example and in a much more simplified manner.

I agree with what you are saying entirely.

We give life meaning through living, not through philosophies and ideas.
Life is in the action, not the faith. Faith without action means nothing.
We are what we do. We may imagine that we are something more than what we do but this is a delusion in our mind. We are what we do and meaning is only found in us. There is no meaning to the Universe which is void of ambition and goals.

The Universe simply "is."
We give meaning to our lives by living (through actions).
Those actions (like our words) mean only what we mean when we use them.
They are not meaningful independent of us.

Here is an example:

One person says, "Damn, that's sick!"
Another person (for the same feeling) will say, "That's cool!"
Yet another person (for the same feeling) will say, "That is neat."

Now, none of the words used above actually mean what that person is saying. Sick means unhealthy, cool means the opposite of warm, and neat means that it is tidy or well kept. But all three people mean the same thing and none of the three people mean exactly what they are saying. The meaning is not in the word, the meaning is in them and others can only understand that meaning and that person if they speak in the same manner and understand what that person is saying. Otherwise there will be no meaning to the person being spoken to.

Life is the same way. Our actions show our intentions.
Our actions give us meaning.

[Riz]

I didn't read your second post, you're right. I just read it and pretty much agree. We don't fully agree, though. "Delusion" isn't a word that would come into my argument. We can only know the universe through our own perception, but we exist within this universe and if we can create meaning then it DOES exist. I also don't agree that something being eternal or longlasting has any more credence over everything else.

Overall we're on the same path though.

[Anidawehi]

I used the word delusion because it is a delusion. It isn't true in the scientific sense of the word but it is true in the experience sense. A dream isn't true or real but there are some dreams that feel more authentic than any memory and stay with us throughout our lives and can be recalled with more clarity than any so called "true" memory.

When I call it a "delusion" . . . it means exactly what it means. It is something which is only experienced internally and externally is not true or real.

We can create meaning and it DOES exist temporarily but it will eventually cease to exist with enough time. The eternal doesn't have more credence over the temporary because the eternal is the constant birth and death of the temporary and the interaction with itself.

This is the only way I know how to explain it:
In our bodies are cells. Our cells circle around the nucleus (or whatever it is called, I'm not real studied on this subject). These cells come into being and exist for a short time, then they die and are ejected from the body. We are like these cells. We come into being for a short time, then we die and are ejected from the earth (to come into being in some other form). The earth is similar to our cells and us. It belongs to our solar system. Our solar system is a cell within our galaxy. Our galaxy is a cell within our universe and our universe is a cell within something larger than itself and this continues on infinitely.

There is no meaning in that.
Looking for meaning and purpose is the disease of a delusional mind.
There is no meaning or purpose. Our minds create meaning and purpose because of ego.

[Sodium]

yo riz why doesnt the universe have an implicit purpose and meaning?

[Riz]

It's possible that it could, but I personally don't think it does. If an individual can only ever know the universe through the perception of their experience then meaning and purpose can only ever be relative to the person. Like you and McGirth have said, there could be some objective truth that humans will never be able to comprehend, but I don't think so. I'm of the persuasion that concepts like meaning and purpose can only be comprehended through consciousness, and I believe that human minds are the only consciousness in the universe.

[Anidawehi]

Ancient Egyptians, Hindus, Zoroastrians, •••s, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists . . .

They all figured it out. The meaning of existence is to worship God.
Now, in order to do that we must know what God is and how we're supposed to worship God. We also must know what existence is.

God is the music that we all dance to.
The current stage for us is the earth.
The Universe is OUR theatre.

So dance like Dervish.
Dance!
That's why we're here.
That's how we worship.
Play your part and do it with your entire being.

Is there meaning to the dance . . . nope
There can't be

To have a meaning to the Universe would indicate that there must be an ending to it. If there is an end then there is a beginning. If there is a beginning then God must be separate from the Universe (or whatever our dimension belongs to). If God is outside of the Universe then God belongs to something bigger than himself, therefore God is NOT the ultimate being . . . but God is the ultimate being and so God is not OUTSIDE of existence. God is within it. God is within us, around us, above us and below us. God is the music which we dance to.

You don't dance for purpose.
You dance because you are alive.
WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY

It's so dull. Just shut up and dance.